a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

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jgibson000
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a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by jgibson000 »

I understand the assertion in Hebrews 4:15 that the intended readers of Hebrews have a High Priest who was πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ’ ὁμοιότητα .. . as having a specific temporal reference and is conveying the idea that in Jesus the readers of Hebrews have ""one who has been tested in all the ways in which we are being tested NOW" (i.e. at the time the author of Hebrews is writing to his audience). Am I correct to think so?

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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

jgibson000 wrote: October 18th, 2022, 11:25 am as having a specific temporal reference
δια τι;
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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by jgibson000 »

I'm not sure how this answers my question or what it is you are asking me about. I wonder if you'd be kind enough to clarify what you mean by δια τι;
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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Why? Why do you think there's a temporal reference?
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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by jgibson000 »

That seems to be the implication of the present participle. And surely the author of Hebrews has an understanding of when those "testings" he says belong to his audience took place.

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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by jgibson000 »

Of course, the title of this thread should be "temporal reference in Heb. 4:15" not "temoral rederence...". I'd change it to what it should be, but I don't know how to do so or even if there's a way to do so.

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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

The whole sentence (which you should have quoted in full) is

οὐ γὰρ ἔχομεν ἀρχιερέα μὴ δυνάμενον συμπαθῆσαι ταῖς ἀσθενείαις ἡμῶν, πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ’ ὁμοιότητα χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας.

There's only one present participle here, δυνάμενον, and in no way it gives any temporal reference for the testing, and our own testing isn't even referenced to with a verb but with καθ’ ὁμοιότητα, "in the same way", with some kind of ellipsis, "as we are" implied. You can't read any specific temporal reference to that ellipsis. Most probably the message is that we human beings are, in general, tested. You need the context to argue otherwise, and I don't necessarily disagree if someone does, but you can't read any temporal reference back to the situation from the grammar or syntax.
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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

I understand the assertion in Hebrews 4:15 that the intended readers of Hebrews have a High Priest who was πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ’ ὁμοιότητα .. . as having a specific temporal reference and is conveying the idea that in Jesus the readers of Hebrews have ""one who has been tested in all the ways in which we are being tested NOW" (i.e. at the time the author of Hebrews is writing to his audience). Am I correct to think so?


I read the original post and saw nothing objectionable in what was being proposed. I read it again to see if I missed something. I waited and read it 14hrs later. I still see nothing objectionable. The second temporal sphere is implied not expressed. It could be NOW or at any time in the future.

CSB

Postscript: The word πεπειρασμένον was a red flag because I remember papers being written on that word group in regard to the Lords Prayer. That isn't the topic currently under discussion.
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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by Jonathan Robie »

jgibson000 wrote: October 18th, 2022, 11:25 am I understand the assertion in Hebrews 4:15 that the intended readers of Hebrews have a High Priest who was πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ’ ὁμοιότητα .. . as having a specific temporal reference and is conveying the idea that in Jesus the readers of Hebrews have ""one who has been tested in all the ways in which we are being tested NOW" (i.e. at the time the author of Hebrews is writing to his audience). Am I correct to think so?
I think this is indirect, but can be read from the context.
Heb 4:15 wrote:οὐ γὰρ ἔχομεν ἀρχιερέα μὴ δυνάμενον συμπαθῆσαι ταῖς ἀσθενείαις ἡμῶν, πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ᾽ ὁμοιότητα χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας.
οὐ γὰρ ἔχομεν ἀρχιερέα μὴ δυνάμενον συμπαθῆσαι ταῖς ἀσθενείαις ἡμῶν. We don't have a high priest who us unable to sympathize with our weakness. When do we have that weakness? Now.

[ἔχομεν δὲ ἀρχιερέα] πεπειρασμένον δὲ κατὰ πάντα καθ᾽ ὁμοιότητα χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας

Instead, we have a high priest who has been tempted/tested in all things in the same way without sin. So with respect to the time of writing, our high priest has already been tempted/tested. And we have such a high priest now, at the time of writing. And we have weaknesses that he can sympathize with, now, at the time of writing.

I think those are the temporal relationships that I would feel confident in. Am I missing some?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: a temporal reference in Heb. 4:15

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: October 20th, 2022, 7:09 pm I read the original post and saw nothing objectionable in what was being proposed. I read it again to see if I missed something. I waited and read it 14hrs later. I still see nothing objectionable. The second temporal sphere is implied not expressed. It could be NOW or at any time in the future.
What you say is confusing, at least to me. The OP talks about "present participle", but the only present participle in the sentence has nothing to do with time of the testing. And you say "second temporal sphere..." What second temporal sphere? Then you say "It could be NOW or at any time in the future". Does that refer to the same temporal sphere than what the OP refers to, to the time of testing? In that case what you say and how the OP interprets it contradict each other, because he thinks it's NOW (but apparently not at any time in the future).
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