Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3638
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 27th, 2011, 10:41 am

Matthew 21 wrote:28 Τί δὲ ὑμῖν δοκεῖ; ἄνθρωπος εἶχεν τέκνα δύο· προσελθὼν τῷ πρώτῳ εἶπεν· τέκνον, ὕπαγε σήμερον ἐργάζου ἐν τῷ ἀμπελῶνι. 29 ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· οὐ θέλω, ὕστερον μεταμεληθεὶς ἀπῆλθεν. 30 προσελθὼν δὲ τῷ ἑτέρῳ εἶπεν ὡσαύτως. ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν. 31 τίς ἐκ τῶν δύο ἐποίησεν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός; λέγουσιν· ὁ πρῶτος. λέγει αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι οἱ τελῶναι καὶ αἱ πόρναι προάγουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ. 32 ἦλθεν γὰρ Ἰωάννης πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐν ὁδῷ δικαιοσύνης, καὶ οὐκ ἐπιστεύσατε αὐτῷ· οἱ δὲ τελῶναι καὶ αἱ πόρναι ἐπίστευσαν αὐτῷ· ὑμεῖς δὲ ἰδόντες οὐ μετεμελήθητε ὕστερον τοῦ πιστεῦσαι αὐτῷ.
How should I read ἐγώ, κύριε in this passage? It seems to mean something like "yes, sir!", one translation renders this "I go, sir!" - can anyone document the idiom? Taken literally, the phrase makes no sense in this passage.
0 x


ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Mark Lightman
Posts: 300
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 6:30 pm

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Mark Lightman » October 27th, 2011, 11:51 am

Hi, Jonathan,

Questions in Greek are often answered not with, as in English, "yes," but with some form of repeating in the answer the verb from the question.

Do you speak Greek? λαλεῖς Ἑλληνιστί?
I speak (=yes) λαλῶ.

This is one way of explaining what is happening here, ἐγὠ κύριε = ἐγὼ ἐργάσομαι κύριε =( yes,) I (will work,) Lord. Even though the verb in v. 28, έράζου, is imperative, the construction according to the sense is a question. ἆρα έργάσῃ? ἐγώ.
0 x

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3638
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 27th, 2011, 12:08 pm

Mark Lightman wrote:Questions in Greek are often answered not with, as in English, "yes," but with some form of repeating in the answer the verb from the question.

Do you speak Greek? λαλεῖς Ἑλληνιστί?
I speak (=yes) λαλῶ.

This is one way of explaining what is happening here, ἐγὠ κύριε = ἐγὼ ἐργάσομαι κύριε =( yes,) I (will work,) Lord. Even though the verb in v. 28, έράζου, is imperative, the construction according to the sense is a question. ἆρα έργάσῃ? ἐγώ.
To me, though, the question is this: ὕπαγε σήμερον ἐργάζου ἐν τῷ ἀμπελῶνι.

So if he had answered, ὕπαγω, it would have made sense to me.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by cwconrad » October 27th, 2011, 12:30 pm

My take on this is that the response, ἐγώ, κύριε, amounts to the response seen often enough in the OT, "Here am I" as a positive response to a summons: Cf. Ex. 3:4, Isaiah 6:8. Something like, "at your service" (the German resply, "Servus!" or "You can count on me!"
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3638
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 27th, 2011, 2:35 pm

cwconrad wrote:My take on this is that the response, ἐγώ, κύριε, amounts to the response seen often enough in the OT, "Here am I" as a positive response to a summons: Cf. Ex. 3:4, Isaiah 6:8. Something like, "at your service" (the German resply, "Servus!" or "You can count on me!"
Is ἐγώ used like this elsewhere?

In Exodus 3:4, I see הִנֵּֽנִי in the Hebrew, but I see this in the LXX:
ὡς δὲ εἶδεν κύριος ὅτι προσάγει ἰδεῖν ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὸν κύριος ἐκ τοῦ βάτου λέγων *μωυσῆ *μωυσῆ ὁ δὲ εἶπεν τί ἐστιν
So that doesn't tell me much.

In Isaiah 6:8, I see this:
Καὶ ἤκουσα τῆς φωνῆς κυρίου λέγοντος Τίνα ἀποστίς πορεύσεται πρὸς τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον;

Καὶ εἶπα Ἰδού ἐγώ εἰμι · ἀπόστειλόν με.
I don't yet see other places where ἐγώ, κύριε, without further context, means the kind of thing it probably must mean in Matthew 21:30.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

David Lim
Posts: 901
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by David Lim » October 27th, 2011, 8:38 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
cwconrad wrote:My take on this is that the response, ἐγώ, κύριε, amounts to the response seen often enough in the OT, "Here am I" as a positive response to a summons: Cf. Ex. 3:4, Isaiah 6:8. Something like, "at your service" (the German resply, "Servus!" or "You can count on me!"
Is ἐγώ used like this elsewhere?
Do Gen 22:1,11, 27:1,18, 1 Sam 3:4, 22:12, 2 Sam 1:7 count? But 1 Sam 12:3 has the same phrase "ιδου εγω" used as an exclamation rather than a response, so it seems to be more of "behold, I [am right here]." rather than "yes, me!".
0 x
δαυιδ λιμ

MAubrey
Posts: 1002
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by MAubrey » October 27th, 2011, 10:29 pm

David Lim wrote:But 1 Sam 12:3 has the same phrase "ιδου εγω" used as an exclamation rather than a response, so it seems to be more of "behold, I [am right here]." rather than "yes, me!".
That still has the sense of "Here I am." ἰδοὺ is regularly used for presentational constructions--see Nicholas Bailey's Thetic Constructions in Koine Greek. "Behold" is a mistranslation that places too much (distracting) emphasis on etymology.
Jonathan Robie wrote:Is ἐγώ used like this elsewhere?
There are a handful in the Pseudepigrapha, though they all involve ἴδου like 1 Sam 12:3. It seems that Carl's observation is spot on. If anything the appearance of ἰδοὺ is clear evidence of that (see the linked dissertation above for reasons why). Matthew 21:30 is probably just a condensed form of the larger ἰδοὺ ἐγώ construction.

Joseph and Aseneth 4.5 ἰδοὺ ἐγώ, κύριε. Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῇ· κάθισον [δὴ] ἀναμέσον ἡμῶν καὶ λαλήσω πρὸς σὲ τὰ ῥήματά μου.
Joseph and Aseneth 14.6 ἰδοὺ ἐγώ, κύριε, ἀνάγγειλόν μοι τίς εἶ σύ.
Joseph and Aseneth 17.1 ἰδοὺ ἐγώ, κύριε, ἑώρακα ταῦτα πάντα.
Apoc. Mos. 41.1 Ἐκάλεσεν δὲ ὁ θεὸς τὸν Ἀδὰμ καὶ εἶπεν· Ἀδὰμ Ἀδάμ; καὶ ἀποκριθὲν τὸ σῶμα ἐκ τῆς γῆς εἶπεν· ἰδοὺ ἐγώ, κύριε.
0 x
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

George F Somsel
Posts: 172
Joined: May 9th, 2011, 10:11 am

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by George F Somsel » October 28th, 2011, 1:47 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
cwconrad wrote:
My take on this is that the response, ἐγώ, κύριε, amounts to the response seen often enough in the OT, "Here am I" as a positive response to a summons: Cf. Ex. 3:4, Isaiah 6:8. Something like, "at your service" (the German resply, "Servus!" or "You can count on me!"

Is ἐγώ used like this elsewhere?
W. D. Davies notes in the ICC, vol 3, p 168:
ἐγὼ, κύριε, καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν. For the elliptical ‘I, lord’ see Acts 9:10 (cf. also Judg 13:11; 1 Kgs 13:14). The meaning is ‘I (will go), lord’.
10 ῏Ην δέ τις μαθητὴς ἐν Δαμασκῷ ὀνόματι Ἁνανίας, καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτὸν ἐν ὁράματι ὁ κύριος· Ἁνανία. ὁ δὲ εἶπεν· ἰδοὺ ἐγώ, κύριε.
0 x
george
gfsomsel



… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



- Jan Hus

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3638
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 28th, 2011, 8:16 am

David Lim wrote:Do Gen 22:1,11, 27:1,18, 1 Sam 3:4, 22:12, 2 Sam 1:7 count?
Very much so. And they each seem to translate הִנֵּֽנִי.

Thanks, Mike, David, George - I think I get it now. ἐγώ, κύριε is a shorter form of ἰδοὺ ἐγώ, κύριε, where ἰδοὺ ἐγώ means the same thing as הִנֵּֽנִי.

Is this a Semiticism, or is this just Greek?
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3638
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 28th, 2011, 9:37 am

MAubrey wrote:That still has the sense of "Here I am." ἰδοὺ is regularly used for presentational constructions--see Nicholas Bailey's Thetic Constructions in Koine Greek. "Behold" is a mistranslation that places too much (distracting) emphasis on etymology.
Only had time to skim this briefly, but it looks very useful. Time for me to stop thinking "behold!"
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”