Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

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David Lim
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by David Lim » October 30th, 2011, 9:16 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
MAubrey wrote:That still has the sense of "Here I am." ἰδοὺ is regularly used for presentational constructions--see Nicholas Bailey's Thetic Constructions in Koine Greek. "Behold" is a mistranslation that places too much (distracting) emphasis on etymology.
Only had time to skim this briefly, but it looks very useful. Time for me to stop thinking "behold!"
I have no idea what both of you are trying to say actually, since I have always considered "behold" (without the exclamation mark) as a kind of particle (grammatically like "truly,", semantically like the informal "here,") that points out something, which is why I said that the phrase could be rendered as "behold, I [am right here]" where the added words were intended to convey that. The article also admits: "There is no doubt that perception verbs like look or see often fill this role and that many dedicated deictic thetic forms derive from such verbs." Moreover I disagree with the article that "ιδου" in Matt 4:11 means "suddenly". It simply points out the fact that "messengers [of God] came near and ministered to him". If however you mean that this meaning of "behold" is no longer well understood in modern English, then behold, I am outdated.. ;)
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by MAubrey » October 30th, 2011, 10:08 pm

David Lim wrote:I have no idea what both of you are trying to say actually, since I have always considered "behold" (without the exclamation mark) as a kind of particle (grammatically like "truly,", semantically like the informal "here,") that points out something, which is why I said that the phrase could be rendered as "behold, I [am right here]" where the added words were intended to convey that. The article also admits: "There is no doubt that perception verbs like look or see often fill this role and that many dedicated deictic thetic forms derive from such verbs." Moreover I disagree with the article that "ιδου" in Matt 4:11 means "suddenly". It simply points out the fact that "messengers [of God] came near and ministered to him". If however you mean that this meaning of "behold" is no longer well understood in modern English, then behold, I am outdated.. ;)
Outside of the KJV tradition, I doubt you ever find such a usage for "behold" at any point in the the English language for at least a few hundred years. "Behold" in the way you're using it is nothing more than "biblish." It isn't an issue of whether or not "behold" is understood is still well understood. It's an issue of that meaning never actually existing and its an issue of whether or not "behold" is accurate representation of the Greek.

Perception verbs do indeed focus this way in many languages, but English isn't one of them. Equally (more?) importantly, in Greek, the perception verb is only the source of the construction. That says nothing about current usages during the New Testament, where ἰδοὺ has grammaticalized.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 31st, 2011, 7:05 am

At the risk of sounding like a KJV defender, I don't think that "behold" was a mistranslation when the KJV went to press. I think the KJV translators, who had a good sense of the English of their times, thought it captured the range of usage we see for ἰδοὺ. The OED has simply:
The imperative of the preceding verb, used to call attention
Apart from that, I have bees in my bee-hold. What's in yours? :lol: :roll:
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by David Lim » October 31st, 2011, 8:05 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:At the risk of sounding like a KJV defender, I don't think that "behold" was a mistranslation when the KJV went to press. I think the KJV translators, who had a good sense of the English of their times, thought it captured the range of usage we see for ἰδοὺ. The OED has simply:
The imperative of the preceding verb, used to call attention
Apart from that, I have bees in my bee-hold. What's in yours? :lol: :roll:
Sorry I don't understand what a bee-hold is haha.. Anyway neither am I a KJV reader, so I do not know where I got my version of "behold" from..
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by MAubrey » October 31st, 2011, 12:10 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:At the risk of sounding like a KJV defender, I don't think that "behold" was a mistranslation when the KJV went to press. I think the KJV translators, who had a good sense of the English of their times, thought it captured the range of usage we see for ἰδοὺ. The OED has simply:
Look again. The bible is the earliest source they have:
OED wrote:The imperative of the preceding verb, used to call attention; = lo int.1
[c1440 York Myst. xx. 193 Be-halde howe he alleggis oure lawe.]
1535 Bible (Coverdale) Mal. iii. 1 Beholde, I will send my messaunger.
1600 Shakespeare Midsummer Night's Dream i. i. 147 Beholde, The iawes of darkenesse do deuoure it vp.
a1764 R. Lloyd Dialogue in Wks. II. 2 Behold! to yours and my surprize, These trifles to a volume rise.
1831 T. Carlyle Sartor Resartus iii. viii, Fortunatus‥when he‥wished himself Anywhere, behold he was There.
The bracketed citations, "... are not actual instances of our word, but quotations which give some information about related words at a time before mammoth itself is first recorded in English." What was an accurate translation in the KJV was their use of the word "lo," which goes back to Old English and has since died out, which today we use only in the phrase "lo and behold," but the earliest citation of that is from 1808. Actually "lo" continues in "look" today, which it was derived from anyway.

But the presentation "here" usage existed at least as far back as AD970. The fact that the KJV translators chose "lo" and "behold" rather than "lo" and "here" for translating ἰδοὺ just shows they were translating etymology rather than usage.
David Lim wrote: Anyway neither am I a KJV reader, so I do not know where I got my version of "behold" from..
You got it from whatever introductory grammar you learned from and how they glossed it--even BDAG gets it wrong.
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by cwconrad » October 31st, 2011, 1:55 pm

To follow up yet a bit farther along Mike's lines regarding distinction of grammatical form and function of words that are essentially interjections or attention-getters:

Greek ἰδοῦ clearly originates as a middle aorist imperative of ἰδεῖν, but it functions essentially as an attention-getting interjection: "Hey!" French voici and voilà are similar; clearly derived from the imperative vois of the verb voir, "see," they are words used with the fingers that may be pointing in a direction or may simply be expressing strong feeling. Another oddball usage is that of οὗτος in an exclamation as a vocative, "Hey you!" Yet another is the interjection δεῦρο, "hither" or "over here" which can become a plural imperative δεῦτε or δηὖτε which may still not really be an imperative. Then there are the imperatives ἄγε and φέρε that simply express impatience: "come on" or "hey!" I've often pondered whether there's any real difference between ἰδοῦ and ἰδέ, the former an aorist middle imperative in origin, the latter an aorist active, and both seem, so far as I can tell, to be used the same way, just like English "hey!"

If one does enough reading in Greek, one readily understands how these words are being used, what their function is in context. But when one first encounters them, one tends to ask these questions about the grammatical classification of the word-forms, questions that native speakers would probably never consciously entertain.
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George F Somsel
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by George F Somsel » November 1st, 2011, 1:59 am

I kind of like the more contemporary "Look!" for "Behold!"
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by James Spinti » November 1st, 2011, 9:16 am

Personally, I like a phrase that a fellow graduate student used to use (way back in the day): "Check it out!"
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Re: Matthew 21:30 εἶπεν· ἐγώ, κύριε· καὶ οὐκ ἀπῆλθεν

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 21st, 2011, 12:13 pm

Another interesting example of ἰδοὺ:
James 5:7 wrote:ἰδοὺ ὁ γεωργὸς ἐκδέχεται τὸν τίμιον καρπὸν τῆς γῆς, μακροθυμῶν ἐπ’ αὐτῷ ἕως λάβῃ πρόϊμον καὶ ὄψιμον.
In informal oral English, we sometimes say "look" for this kind of thing:

"Look, the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth ..."
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