Luke 1:13 and the pronoun σοι

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
MAubrey
Posts: 1002
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: Luke 1:13 and the pronoun σοι

Post by MAubrey » January 12th, 2012, 8:48 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:I would take Acts 24:14 as a case of verb preposing (see my comments on Acts 11:12)
Well, my comments on that post still hold. I'm not yet convinced of the verbs-as-topics thesis.

Between my acceptance of Janse's view (or at least a modified version of Janse's view) and your acceptance of Dik's proposal about topicalization, we're kind of stuck!
0 x


Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Luke 1:13 and the pronoun σοι

Post by Stephen Carlson » January 12th, 2012, 9:35 pm

MAubrey wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Well, not that strange, at least phonologically. Take, for example, John 18:35 οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς παρέδωκάν σε ἐμοί. Pilate here is expressing surprise that the Judean chief-priests would be handing Jesus over to him. So even with a contrastive "emphatic" pronoun ἐμοί, the clitic is in the Wackernagel position of its intonation unit.

Likewise, for Luke 1:13, both parents were not expected to have children because both were too old. So the angel is telling Zach that not only Elizabeth will have a son, but that the son will also be his. (Of course, in the other miraculous birth in the Lukan infancy account, the baby is not the husband's.) So there is a discourse function; it is a least identificational, rather than merely informational, focus.
Exactly. This demonstrates that it is perfectly fine to have "emphatic" constituents post-verbally. If ἐμοί can do it, why can't υἱόν? As for the enclitic here, do enclitics pronouns ever attach to orthotonic pronouns? I never thought about it or looked for it, but at face value, it sounds odd to me. I don't have time to follow up right now...technically I don't have time for B-Greek right now either...
The difference between John 18:35 and Luke 1:13 is the placement of the clitic. However "emphatic" ἐμοί in John 18:35 is, the clitic does not attach to it. I claim it's because it's not a Wackernagel host.

As for the question, do enclitic pronouns ever attach to orthotonic pronouns? A quick search for "ἐμοί σε" in TLG says the answer is "yes" but it's fairly rare. Some examples are in poetry, which is less helpful because the verse structure gives more places of phonological prominence for the clitic to attach, but there's a nice example in Josephus:
Josephus, AJ 7.185, wrote:πῶς γὰρ ἂν πεισθείην ἐμοί σε ταύτην [ἀληθῶς] δεδωκέναι τὴν χάριν αὐτοῦ σοῦ μέχρι νῦν ἐφ’ ὁμοίοις ἀπεχθανομένου τῷ παιδί;
Here, ἐμοί is at the beginning of an intonation unit for the infinitive clause with δεδωκέναι.
MAubrey wrote:And after searching the NT, it seems that this post-verbal use of orthotonic pronouns (outside of PPs) is just as rare as post-verbal enclitics that don't attach to the verb.
According to my count of ἐμοί/μοι (which does not have to rely on editorial judgments unlike σοι/σοί), there are 10 post-verbal (non-PP) ἐμοί cases out of 41, and 1 post-post-verbal μοι cases out of 224.

Compare:
Luke 1:3 ἔδοξε κἀμοὶ παρηκολουθηκότι
John 5:46 εἰ γὰρ ἐπιστεύετε Μωϋσεῖ, # ἐπιστεύτε ἂν ἐμοί
John 8:12 ὁ ἀκολουθῶν ἐμοι
John 18:35 οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς παρέδωκάν σε ἐμοί
Acts 8:19 δότε κἀμοὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν ταύτην
Rom 7:21a τῷ θέλοντι ἐμοὶ ποιεῖν τὸ καλόν
1Cor 15:8 # ὤφθη κάμοί
Gal 2:8 ένήργησεν καὶ ἐμοί
Gal 2:9 ἔδωκαν ἐμοὶ καὶ Βαρναβᾷ
Phil 1:7 καθώς ἐστιν δίκαιον ἐμοί
with:
Acts 11:12 εἶπεν δὲ # τὸ πνεῦμα μοι συνελθεῖν αὐτοῖς
And here, my # indicates what I suspect to be a case of verb-preposing.

Stephen
0 x
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

MAubrey
Posts: 1002
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: Luke 1:13 and the pronoun σοι

Post by MAubrey » January 13th, 2012, 2:14 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:According to my count of ἐμοί/μοι (which does not have to rely on editorial judgments unlike σοι/σοί), there are 10 post-verbal (non-PP) ἐμοί cases out of 41, and 1 post-post-verbal μοι cases out of 224.

Compare:

Luke 1:3 ἔδοξε κἀμοὶ παρηκολουθηκότι
John 5:46 εἰ γὰρ ἐπιστεύετε Μωϋσεῖ, # ἐπιστεύτε ἂν ἐμοί
John 8:12 ὁ ἀκολουθῶν ἐμοι
John 18:35 οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς παρέδωκάν σε ἐμοί
Acts 8:19 δότε κἀμοὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν ταύτην
Rom 7:21a τῷ θέλοντι ἐμοὶ ποιεῖν τὸ καλόν
1Cor 15:8 # ὤφθη κάμοί
Gal 2:8 ένήργησεν καὶ ἐμοί
Gal 2:9 ἔδωκαν ἐμοὶ καὶ Βαρναβᾷ
Phil 1:7 καθώς ἐστιν δίκαιον ἐμοί

with:

Acts 11:12 εἶπεν δὲ # τὸ πνεῦμα μοι συνελθεῖν αὐτοῖς

And here, my # indicates what I suspect to be a case of verb-preposing.
That's a helpful list, thanks!

But I think we're going to have to continue to agree to disagree with the foreseeable future for the reasons I mentioned above.
0 x
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”