A letter in Greek to My Pastor

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Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » December 10th, 2015, 2:04 pm

Chris Servanti wrote:Okay, here is V3:

Πέτρος δοῦλος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ διὰ θελήματος Θεοῦ, τῷ ποιμένι μοῦ τῷ [Χρίστοφερ]' χάρις σοι καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ. μνημονεύεις ὅτι λαλεῖν τῇ Ἐλληνικῇ κοινῇ ἵσως ἀδύνατον ἐστιν ἔλεξας μοί; ἀορθῶς. μετὰ μικρὸν ἐγὼ δύναμαι γράψαι αὐτῇ - μόνον μικρόν. ἄφες μοὶ τὰ ὀφειληματὰ μοῦ, ἀλλὰ δεῖ μὲ λαλεῖν ὅτι σὺ ἦς ἀορθῶς καὶ ἐγὼ ἤμην ὀρθῶς' δύνατον ἐστιν :) τὸ ἐρώτημα ἔτι μένει ὅτι διὰ τὶ θελῇς λαλεῖν καὶ γραφεῖν αὐτῇ, ἀλλὰ ἐγὼ πιστεύω ὅτι τὸ ἐρώτημα μείζων ἐστιν ὅτι τὶ οὐ.

I don't know the dative singular of Christopher.
I'm not really sure how to say "the question is..."
http://www.behindthename.com/name/christopher (looks like regular -os)

There's still something which feels like wooden English->Koine translation (it's too easy to make back-translation):

δεῖ μὲ λαλεῖν ὅτι: "I have to say that..." At least you should change λαλεῖν to aorist. Otherwise it feels like "I have to talk that...". And I would rather use legw. Not sure why, though.

σὺ ἦς ἀορθῶς καὶ ἐγὼ ἤμην ὀρθῶς: Finding too often the word "be" is another easy way of telling whether it's directly translated from English (or many other languages). Greek favours the ellipsis of that neutral and empty-in-itself word. You could say as well "σὺ ἀορθῶς καὶ ἐγὼ ὀρθῶς". Also the word order betrays the English backround. "σὺ ἀορθῶς ἦς καὶ ἐγὼ ὀρθῶς" would be pretty good if you still want to refer to the past with the imperfect form.

διὰ τὶ θελῇς: "why would you want to..." I don't think Koine speakers would use 3rd person passive construction. "Why would we" sounds better.

Chris Servanti
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Chris Servanti » December 10th, 2015, 5:47 pm

Okay, here is V4:

Πέτρος δοῦλος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ διὰ θελήματος Θεοῦ, τῷ ποιμένι μοῦ τῷ Χριστοφόρῳ' χάρις σοι καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ. μνημονεύεις ὅτι λαλεῖν τῇ Ἐλληνικῇ κοινῇ ἵσως ἀδύνατον ἐστιν ἔλεξας μοί; ἀορθῶς. μετὰ μικρὸν ἐγὼ δύναμαι αὐτῇ γράψαι - μόνον μικρόν. ἄφες μοὶ τὰ ὀφειληματὰ μοῦ, ἀλλὰ δεῖ μὲ λέξαι ὅτι σὺ ἀορθῶς ἦς καὶ ἐγὼ ὀρθῶς' δύνατον ἐστιν :) τὸ ἐρώτημα ἔτι μένει ὅτι διὰ τὶ θελῶ λαλεῖν καὶ γραφεῖν αὐτῇ, ἀλλὰ ἐγὼ πιστεύω ὅτι τὸ ἐρώτημα μείζων ἐστιν ὅτι τὶ οὐ.

I still question whether the underlined section would be proper (The oti usage)
Last edited by Chris Servanti on December 10th, 2015, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stephen Carlson
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Stephen Carlson » December 10th, 2015, 5:49 pm

Chris Servanti wrote:I don't know the dative singular of Christopher.
Χριστοφόρῳ
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Chris Servanti
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Chris Servanti » December 10th, 2015, 6:03 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Chris Servanti wrote:I don't know the dative singular of Christopher.
Χριστοφόρῳ
Haha, don't know how I missed that :oops:

Louis L Sorenson
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Louis L Sorenson » December 11th, 2015, 3:18 am

ἀορθῶς is a neologism - does not occur in ancient Greek: See http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi ... NCT=PHRASE. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... 2&la=greek. Perhaps use ἥμαρτες ἡμάρτησας.

A good place to look for Greek vocabulary for English words is http://perseus.uchicago.edu/Reference/LSJ.html. Enter your English word in the lower section where it says "SEARCH THE FULL TEXT OF LSJ".

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 11th, 2015, 10:05 am

Louis L Sorenson wrote:ἀορθῶς is a neologism - does not occur in ancient Greek: See http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi ... NCT=PHRASE. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... 2&la=greek. Perhaps use ἥμαρτες ἡμάρτησας.

A good place to look for Greek vocabulary for English words is http://perseus.uchicago.edu/Reference/LSJ.html. Enter your English word in the lower section where it says "SEARCH THE FULL TEXT OF LSJ".
Then what you want to do is read the entire article on the word to make sure it fits the context in which you want to use it. It strikes me, Chris, that you should know the language a little better before you essay this.

I would leave the ὅτι out altogether and use λαλῆσαι, not λαλεῖν, or εἰπεῖν, not λέξαι.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Stephen Hughes
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 12th, 2015, 4:04 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:It strikes me, Chris, that you should know the language a little better before you essay this.
I'm not exactly sure what "essay" means in this usage. Let me make a quick comment on the "before you", and apply it to compose a letter.

The types of errors in the Greek of the authours of personal correspondence tend to be mostly in spelling (substituting vowels or consonants with the same pronunciation) and case endings. Big things like the form and structure are not so common errors.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 12th, 2015, 8:44 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:It strikes me, Chris, that you should know the language a little better before you essay this.
I'm not exactly sure what "essay" means in this usage. Let me make a quick comment on the "before you", and apply it to compose a letter.

The types of errors in the Greek of the authours of personal correspondence tend to be mostly in spelling (substituting vowels or consonants with the same pronunciation) and case endings. Big things like the form and structure are not so common errors.
Seriously?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/essay?s=t
essay
[noun es-ey for 1, 2; es-ey, e-sey for 3–5; verb e-sey]
noun ...

verb (used with object)

6. to try; attempt.
7. to put to the test; make trial of.
While it makes sense that spelling errors would be more numerous, there are still plenty of grammatical solecisms in the papyri. Revelation is a special case. In stating that solecisms exist in the text and are regarded as such does not explain why such solecisms exist. Rev 1:4 has exercised many a commentator, and it may have good exegetical or theological explanation, but it's still non-standard Greek.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen » December 12th, 2015, 11:39 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote: While it makes sense that spelling errors would be more numerous, there are still plenty of grammatical solecisms in the papyri. Revelation is a special case. In stating that solecisms exist in the text and are regarded as such does not explain why such solecisms exist. Rev 1:4 has exercised many a commentator, and it may have good exegetical or theological explanation, but it's still non-standard Greek.
Would you have told to the writer of the Revelation: "you should know the language a little better before you essay this"?

Stephen Hughes
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Re: A letter in Greek to My Pastor

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 12th, 2015, 1:11 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:It strikes me, Chris, that you should know the language a little better before you essay this.
I'm not exactly sure what "essay" means in this usage. Let me make a quick comment on the "before you", and apply it to compose a letter.
Seriously?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/essay?s=t
essay
[noun es-ey for 1, 2; es-ey, e-sey for 3–5; verb e-sey]
noun ...

verb (used with object)

6. to try; attempt.
7. to put to the test; make trial of.
Yes. Both of those meanings.

I was (am) unclear whether you meant
  • (i) that the attempt to prove a diary cold be written in Greek, when the letter to prove it is a learning experience (not being an example - in terms of some basic elements of the language - of what he is trying (valiantly) to show could be done by way of an example of writing in Greek), or
    (ii) that the attempt to write in Greek to prove that a point was such an overhead on the task of persuasion that logical structure and arguments, which could have easily been made in the well-practiced acrobatic routines of is mother tongue both forcefully and with the eloquence of an Edmund Burke, had to be abandoned in favour of the expedient and possible in contorting and convoluted uneasiness of this as yet alien form of expression.
Either way, I take what you have said as an encouragement for him to continue with composition, which will result in improvement in all regards.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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