Jonathan Robie wrote:
ὁ κύριος κρινεῖ ἡμὰς ἐν τῷ ἔρχεσθαι αὐτὸν πάλιν.
Stephen Hughes wrote:The κρινεῖ happens within the (temporal) context of the (temporal) context of the ἔρχεσθαι αὐτὸν so it would generally come after it (ἔρχεσθαι being a concrete action that occurs in a place and at a time).
What are you using for reference?
There are two reference points, which I avoided stating - so as not to give the "answer" and to avoid discussing doctrine, but I suppose if a Martian asks it might be okay to say. The main point of reference is the way that the person who composed this didn't analyse or tree diagram the "when he comes again" as a VP including the adverb. "When he comes" is rendered with the possible ἐν τῷ ἔρχεσθαι αὐτὸν, then "again" is rendered by πάλιν. The second unstated point of reference is that the phrases "come again" and "second coming" are Christian rather than Biblical doctrines, and I assume that not all board members value the Nicene Creed in the same way, so rather than bringing that into a discussion on composition, I didn't mention the Creed.
Jonathan Robie wrote:I think there are probably quite a few sentences where the main verb comes before this kind of infinitive construction, here's one that comes to mind:
καὶ ἐθαύμαζον ἐν τῷ χρονίζειν ἐν τῷ ναῷ αὐτόν. (Luke 1:21)
Please notice that we are using different language to describe this within different frameworks of analysis. You are analysing the order of the parts of speech (main, ie finite verb) and the types of phrases (this (ie articular with preposition) kind of infinitive construction). I am talking about degrees of specificity. The basic pattern of Greek word order moves from general statements to specific details. Narrator knowledge is introduced early. It is a type of conceptual of thematic knowledge.
Parts of speech (such as main verb) and grammatical features such as number, case and gender show the grammatical relation between words. Greek is composed using the features you are talking, but I don't think they are useful for analysing word order.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:The πάλιν (a narrative word) is the (thematic) context within which the ἔρχεσθαι happens, so it would be written before it.
καὶ ἐλθὼν πάλιν εὗρεν αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας, ἦσαν γὰρ αὐτῶν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ βεβαρημένοι. (Matthew 26:43)
καὶ ἀφεὶς αὐτοὺς πάλιν ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο ἐκ τρίτου τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν πάλιν. (Matthew 26:44)
Καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος πάλιν τὸν ὄχλον ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· Ἀκούσατέ μου πάντες καὶ σύνετε. (Mark 7:14)
Yes. You are right. Perhaps, I should have stated more explicitly that πάλιν used in section of text following narrative rules is a narrative word. Matthew 26:44 is an exception. In the variant you have quoted, it in phrase final position, which seems to allowable in dialogue (spoken or written) to mean like before. To pass into a doctrinal area again, I am presuming that the composer did not mean Jesus woukd come again just like before - born of a young Jewish woman etc., but in power and great glory.
For the other two and a half examples, I'm not sure what seems so obvious that you don't need to say it. If you were reading my "before" as "immediately preceding", then perhaps you could try "before" as "sometime prior to". In the case of that composition, I think that the adverb was treated as a separate sentence element, rather than a verb phrase element. Let me walk through how I read those sentences, then perhaps you could say what you tell me what of that you were meaning.
καὶ signals a new section. ἐλθὼν sets the scene in which another action will take place, it is descriptive background information. πάλιν is narrator added information signalling a reference to a previous section of the narrative εὗρεν is the repeated part of the story that was signalled by the πάλιν. αὐτοὺς tells what or who was found. καθεύδοντας this is the most specific piece of information, ἦσαν this marks the type of statement that will follow. We will be looking for the thing as a substantive. γὰρ specifies the nature of the relationship between this section and the preceeding. It says that we will now have a general to specific sequence about the specific thing of the previous statement. αὐτῶν this possession refers to the whole person of which the eyes are a part. It forms the broad general context of the body part(s) that follow. οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ this is the thing. βεβαρημένοι is the specific piece of information.
καὶ signals a new section. ἀφεὶς αὐτοὺς sets the scene. A general background statement. πάλιν signals a reference to a previous section of the narrative. ἀπελθὼν (the order of the Byzantine text makes more sense here) sets the scene for the following verb. προσηύξατο the thing repeated from a prior part of the story ἐκ τρίτου specific information τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν a phrase conveying the most specific information πάλιν the dialogue use of πάλιν, like English "again" with meaning but not discourse function (this πάλιν does not have a hint of the English "next" in it). (πάλιν is not in the Byzantine text). It is the most specific piece of information about the phrase τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν. It would be much stronger and more specific like, "It was great, if you remember."
Καὶ signals a new section. προσκαλεσάμενος sets the scene / provides background information for the verb that follows πάλιν marks a reminder to something in the story before τὸν ὄχλον what is reminded of. ἔλεγεν the action αὐτοῖς some specific information about the action. Ἀκούσατέ the context within which understanding will take place μου πάντες some more specific information about the -τε καὶ this is in the flow of the sequence from vagueness to specificity σύνετε the specific thing that happens within the context of hearing.
Grammar provides the relationship between elements, but Greek word order is not parts of speech order.