θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

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Thomas Dolhanty
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θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 24th, 2015, 12:27 am

ὁ πρῶτος Βλοῦνως ἱστιοδρομῶν παραπλεῖ
Image

I thought I should move this conversation out of the “Beginner’s” forum to a more appropriate place. If this is not the best place perhaps, Jonathan, you could move it to the right forum for us.
Stephen Hughes wrote:ὁ πρῶτος Βλοῦνως ἱστιοδρομῶν παραπλεῖ, was what I was suggesting for your heading.
Stephen,
Sorry for being so thick! I forgot all about the header in English, which I should have changed at the start. I couldn’t figure out what your initial comments about πρῶτος κτλ were referring to, but it actually struck me after I did my last post and was off doing something else.
Stephen Hughes wrote:If you were considering using διαπλεῖν, I don't think it is the best choice because παρα- is to δια-, as ἐκ- is to ἀπο- or εἰς- is to προσ-, so δια- would be out of place in a limited context photograph.

Very helpful overview.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:ὅ διερμηνευόμενος
Don't you feel this phrasing is somewhat trans-gender?
ὅς διερμηνευόμενος // διερμηνευομένη // διερμηνευόμενον – all the trouble a missing sigma can get you into! It’s one of my perennial mistakes with the relative pronoun since the single omicron looks so much like the masculine article. Thank you for the sharp eye.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:χρόνους ἱκανούς / πολὺν χρόνον / χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον – good time duration alternatives – although I find some of the other idioms like εἰς ἔτη πολλά more interesting. I think of a term like χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον as describing something like stopping over for a few weeks / months as in Acts 14. I know the range of these terms includes longer periods also, though.
ἁλιάετος, ὁ - the sea-eagle, osprey // I’m not sure this would be a better choice than ἀετός as a metaphor for swiftness – even for a sailboat.
Just being able to make th choice is a great thing.
Yes! Only by continuing to find the right word(s) to convey subtle differences will one get to “feel” the language and its contours. Thank you for all your challenges / corrections to this end.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:And while I'm at it, and from the same source, I think I can see more of a case for προκαλέω as a sailboat race. It is certainly used for other than mortal combat engagements - as in Plat. Theaet. 183d which refers to a challenge to debate.
"τοὺς δοκιμάζοντας" seemed to be that you were wanting to say "challengers".
Actually “contestants” – which I suppose could be called challengers. In a race of say 10 boats, the typical English would be 'competitors' or 'contestants' or even 'entrants'. 'Challengers' would work too in English, although my sense of προκαλέω (I need to see some more context) was more a ‘calling out’ of another as in a challenge to a duel or a war or a debate - high noon kind of challenge.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:I am looking forward to a fulsome observation from you ἐν Ἑλληνικῇ on ὁ Βλοῦνως in full sail.
Rather than "fulsome", I've been reading about the "jetsam" (ἐκβολή) washing up near your Halifax.
I am part of the generation of freshmen which, even after all these decades, still associate “flotsam” and “jetsam” with the unforgettable (sigh) line by ee cummings:

“flotsam and jetsam
are gentlemen poeds”
etc.

εγένετο ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ πατρὸς μου ἐναυάγησεν ὁ Τιτανικὸς ἐν τῷ Βορείῳ Ἀτλαντικῷ Ωκεανῷ καὶ ὁ Ἁλιφάξ ἦν ἡ πόλις ἡ ἐγγίζουσα τῷ κακῷ πράγματι· ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τοῦ πατρός μου, μετὰ ταῦτα οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐπελάθοντό, οἱ δὲ ἄνθρωποι Νέας Σκωτίας ἔτι ὡμίλουν πρὸς ἀλλήλους περὶ εἰκείνου τοῦ ναυαγῆσαι τοῦ μεγάλου· ἡ μνήμη ἡ ἐμή κατὰ τὰ ῥήματα ταῦτα ἀπὸ βρέφους εἰστίν ὡς ἡ μνήμη ἐκ παιδός τοῦ Δηλαν Θωμάς:
  • “One Christmas was so much like another, in those years around the sea-town corner now and out of all sound except the distant speaking of the voices I sometimes hear a moment before sleep, that I can never remember whether it snowed for six days and six nights when I was twelve or whether it snowed for twelve days and twelve nights when I was six.” Dylan Thomas, “A Child’s Christmas in Whales”
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 24th, 2015, 2:48 am

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:And while I'm at it, and from the same source, I think I can see more of a case for προκαλέω as a sailboat race. It is certainly used for other than mortal combat engagements - as in Plat. Theaet. 183d which refers to a challenge to debate.
"τοὺς δοκιμάζοντας" seemed to be that you were wanting to say "challengers".
Actually “contestants” – which I suppose could be called challengers. In a race of say 10 boats, the typical English would be 'competitors' or 'contestants' or even 'entrants'. 'Challengers' would work too in English, although my sense of προκαλέω (I need to see some more context) was more a ‘calling out’ of another as in a challenge to a duel or a war or a debate - high noon kind of challenge.
I like watching wildlife documentaries. Your reference to your Bluenose being champion, led me to categorise other contestants as "challengers". In my thinking, a reigning champion doesn't call a challenger out to battle so that he can lose what he has, but a challenger who has something to gain does.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 24th, 2015, 3:08 am

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:ἁλιάετος, ὁ - the sea-eagle, osprey // I’m not sure this would be a better choice than ἀετός as a metaphor for swiftness – even for a sailboat.
Just being able to make th[e] choice is a great thing.
Yes! Only by continuing to find the right word(s) to convey subtle differences will one get to “feel” the language and its contours. Thank you for all your challenges / corrections to this end.
I was (wrongly) assuming that you were trying to incorporate the Nova Scotish state bird into your composition as a reference to where Bluenose was laid down.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 24th, 2015, 8:06 am

I am looking forward to a fulsome observation from you ἐν Ἑλληνικῇ on ὁ Βλοῦνως in full sail.
You're wanting me to describe the rigging, right?

I've incorporated some of the suggestions given in the other thread into my image designs, so how about this:

Καὶ αἰρομένους δὴ ὑπὲρ τοῦ καταστρώματος ὁ Βλοῦνως ἔχει δύο ἰστούς - κύριόν τε καὶ πρωραῖον (τὸν δὲ πρυμναῖον οὐκ ἔχει). περιφανέστατα μὲν βλέπομεν τὸ μέγαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον λελυμένον ἀπὸ τῆς ἱστοκεραίας τῆς τῷ κυρίῳ ἰστῷ δεδεμένης. ὑπὲρ δὲ κυρίου ἰστίου καὶ δεδεμένος τῷ τέρθρῳ βλέπομεν τὸ σπαρτίον ὅ ἐστιν τέρθριος. ὁ τέρθριος αὐτὸς καί ἐστιν ὁ ποῦς τοῦ ὑπεραιωρουμένου καὶ μικροτέρου καὶ τριγωνικοῦ ἰστίου. οὕτως καὶ δὲ ὁ προωραῖος ἰστὸς ἔχει ἱστοκεραίαν καὶ τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον καὶ ὑπεραιωρούμενον ἴστιον ὡς ὁ κύριος. ἐκ δὲ τοῦ προωραίου ἰστοῦ ἤρτηνται τρία τριγωνικὰ προωραῖα ἴστια - δύο κατώτερα καὶ ἓν ἀνώτερον. βλέποντες τὸ ὑψῶσαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον προσηρτῆσθαι τοῖς ἀμφοτέροις ἰστοῖς ἐπιτελοῦμεν ἡμῶν τὴν περιγραφὴν τῶν ἰστῶν τε καὶ ἰστίων τοῦ Βλούνωτος.

ImageImageImageImageImageImage
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 24th, 2015, 11:18 am

Mark Lightman wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:τί βλέπεις ἐν τῂ εἰκόνι τοῦ Βλοῦνως;
Image
πολλὰ βλέπω καὶ καλά. πλοῖον γὰρ βλέπω ἐπὶ θαλάσσης πλέον. νεφέλας δὲ βλέπω. τὸν δὲ ἤλιον οὐ βλέπω. βροχὴν οὖν προσδοκῶ. λέγω ὅτι τὸν Βλούνοντα βρέξει Θεός. ὕδωρ γὰρ ἐκ οὐρανοῦ πέμψει. ἰστία δὲ βλέπω πλήρη τοῦ πνεύματος. ταχέως οὖν πλεῖ ὁ Βλοῦνως.
ναι· ἐστιν τὸν ἀδύνατόν μοι νοῆσαι … τρίβους νηὸς ποντοπορούσης (Παροιμίαι τριάκοντα: ἐννεακαίδεκα). ὁ δέ τήν εἰκόνα βλέπων ἄνω ἔχω λόγοι τοσοῦτοι ἐν Ἀγγλιστὶ αλλὰ ὀλίγοι ἐν Ἑλληνικῇ·
Mark Lightman wrote:[
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:ὁ δὲ Βλοῦνως ἦν πλοῖον καλὸν εὐφραῖνον τὰς καρδίας τοῦ λαοῦ εἰς γενεὰν ὅλην.
οἱ δὲ σοὶ λόγοι με εὐφραίνουσι, ὄντες Ἑλληνιστί. ἔρρωσο, φίλε Θῶμας!
εὐχαριστῶ, Μᾶρκος. σὺ εἶ υἱὸς παρακλήσεως· ἐλπίζω δὲ καὶ ὡσαύτως εἶναι ὁ παρακαλῶν ἐκείνων οὕς διδάσκω·
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 24th, 2015, 2:46 pm

I'm sorry, I got the direction wrong on one picture.

Here is a correct orientation:

Image
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 400
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 24th, 2015, 3:03 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:I'm sorry, I got the direction wrong on one picture.

Here is a correct orientation:

Image
Yes. I know the base words, so I adjusted. Also I think you have to turn around the breathing mark on ἱστός. Nice write-up. After I get the Greek down, I think I'm going to apply for my 3rd class seaman. :)
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 25th, 2015, 12:36 am

ὁ πρῶτος Βλοῦνως ἱστιοδρομῶν παραπλεῖ
Image
Stephen Hughes wrote:Καὶ αἰρομένους δὴ ὑπὲρ τοῦ καταστρώματος ὁ Βλοῦνως ἔχει δύο ἰστούς - κύριόν τε καὶ πρωραῖον (τὸν δὲ πρυμναῖον οὐκ ἔχει). περιφανέστατα μὲν βλέπομεν τὸ μέγαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον λελυμένον ἀπὸ τῆς ἱστοκεραίας τῆς τῷ κυρίῳ ἰστῷ δεδεμένης. ὑπὲρ δὲ κυρίου ἰστίου καὶ δεδεμένος τῷ τέρθρῳ βλέπομεν τὸ σπαρτίον ὅ ἐστιν τέρθριος. ὁ τέρθριος αὐτὸς καί ἐστιν ὁ ποῦς τοῦ ὑπεραιωρουμένου καὶ μικροτέρου καὶ τριγωνικοῦ ἰστίου. οὕτως καὶ δὲ ὁ προωραῖος ἰστὸς ἔχει ἱστοκεραίαν καὶ τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον καὶ ὑπεραιωρούμενον ἴστιον ὡς ὁ κύριος. ἐκ δὲ τοῦ προωραίου ἰστοῦ ἤρτηνται τρία τριγωνικὰ προωραῖα ἴστια - δύο κατώτερα καὶ ἓν ἀνώτερον. βλέποντες τὸ ὑψῶσαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον προσηρτῆσθαι τοῖς ἀμφοτέροις ἰστοῖς ἐπιτελοῦμεν ἡμῶν τὴν περιγραφὴν τῶν ἰστῶν τε καὶ ἰστίων τοῦ Βλούνωτος.
Nice description, Stephen. Very thorough from such a simple photo, at least it seems so to this landlubber. I wouldn't normally translate a piece here, but unless someone is awfully familiar with Hellenistic Greek sailing terminology, this piece would take a bit of time. I think this is pretty close to what you had in mind:

"So, lifted up (αἰρομένους) above the deck (καταστρώματος) the Bluenose has two masts a main mast and a foremast (ie proward mast) (the stern doesn’t have a mast). Conspicuously (περιφανέστατα) we see the large square sail (μέγαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον) having been unattached from the sail-yard (ἱστοκεραίας) which (itself) is bound to the main mast. Above the main mast (on one end) and bound to the end of the sail-yard (τέρθρῳ) (on the other) we see the rope (σπαρτίον) which is a τέρθριος (rope hanging from the end of the sail-yard). The τέρθριος itself is also the ποῦς (lit. ‘foot’ – rope which attaches corner of sail) which is holding up (ὑπεραιωρουμένου) the smaller and triangular sail. In this manner (οὕτως) also, the foremast has a sail-yard and a square sail and also a sail suspended as with the main mast. From the foremast are attached (ἤρτηνται) three triangular forward sails – two lower (κατώτερα) and one upper (ἀνώτερον). Upon observing the raised (ὑψῶσαν) square sail attached to both masts (τοῖς ἀμφοτέροις ἰστοῖς) we have (now) completed our outline of the masts and sails of the Bluenose." Translated from Greek text written by Stephen Hughes

Did I make any serious misreads? The most difficult term for me, I think, was a familiar verb right at the start. I really didn't know what to do with αἰρομένους (αἴρω) - the very second word. I want to say it is 'lifting' the masts, which doesn't make sense, or 'supporting' the masts which really doesn't fit. I still don't quite know why you chose this verb here.
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2015, 1:14 am

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:[ἐ]γένετο ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ πατρὸς μου ...
πάππος / μάμμη may be okay if you are speaking as a child or of a childhood memory. Why did you choose ὁ πατρὸς πατήρ μου over ὁ πάππος μου?
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2015, 2:20 am

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:ὁ πρῶτος Βλοῦνως ἱστιοδρομῶν παραπλεῖ
Image
Stephen Hughes wrote:Καὶ αἰρομένους δὴ ὑπὲρ τοῦ καταστρώματος ὁ Βλοῦνως ἔχει δύο ἰστούς - κύριόν τε καὶ πρωραῖον (τὸν δὲ πρυμναῖον οὐκ ἔχει). περιφανέστατα μὲν βλέπομεν τὸ μέγαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον λελυμένον ἀπὸ τῆς ἱστοκεραίας τῆς τῷ κυρίῳ ἰστῷ δεδεμένης. ὑπὲρ δὲ κυρίου ἰστίου καὶ δεδεμένος τῷ τέρθρῳ βλέπομεν τὸ σπαρτίον ὅ ἐστιν τέρθριος. ὁ τέρθριος αὐτὸς καί ἐστιν ὁ ποῦς τοῦ ὑπεραιωρουμένου καὶ μικροτέρου καὶ τριγωνικοῦ ἰστίου. οὕτως καὶ δὲ ὁ προωραῖος ἰστὸς ἔχει ἱστοκεραίαν καὶ τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον καὶ ὑπεραιωρούμενον ἴστιον ὡς ὁ κύριος. ἐκ δὲ τοῦ προωραίου ἰστοῦ ἤρτηνται τρία τριγωνικὰ προωραῖα ἴστια - δύο κατώτερα καὶ ἓν ἀνώτερον. βλέποντες τὸ ὑψῶσαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον προσηρτῆσθαι τοῖς ἀμφοτέροις ἰστοῖς ἐπιτελοῦμεν ἡμῶν τὴν περιγραφὴν τῶν ἰστῶν τε καὶ ἰστίων τοῦ Βλούνωτος.
Nice description, Stephen. Very thorough from such a simple photo, at least it seems so to this landlubber. I wouldn't normally translate a piece here, but unless someone is awfully familiar with Hellenistic Greek sailing terminology, this piece would take a bit of time. I think this is pretty close to what you had in mind:

"So, lifted up (αἰρομένους) above the deck (καταστρώματος) the Bluenose has two masts a main mast and a foremast (ie proward mast) (the stern doesn’t have a mast). Conspicuously (περιφανέστατα) we see the large square sail (μέγαν τετραγωνικὸν ἴστιον) having been unattached from the sail-yard (ἱστοκεραίας) which (itself) is bound to the main mast. Above the main mast (on one end) and bound to the end of the sail-yard (τέρθρῳ) (on the other) we see the rope (σπαρτίον) which is a τέρθριος (rope hanging from the end of the sail-yard). The τέρθριος itself is also the ποῦς (lit. ‘foot’ – rope which attaches corner of sail) which is holding up (ὑπεραιωρουμένου) the smaller and triangular sail. In this manner (οὕτως) also, the foremast has a sail-yard and a square sail and also a sail suspended as with the main mast. From the foremast are attached (ἤρτηνται) three triangular forward sails – two lower (κατώτερα) and one upper (ἀνώτερον). Upon observing the raised (ὑψῶσαν) square sail attached to both masts (τοῖς ἀμφοτέροις ἰστοῖς) we have (now) completed our outline of the masts and sails of the Bluenose." Translated from Greek text written by Stephen Hughes

Did I make any serious misreads? The most difficult term for me, I think, was a familiar verb right at the start. I really didn't know what to do with αἰρομένους (αἴρω) - the very second word. I want to say it is 'lifting' the masts, which doesn't make sense, or 'supporting' the masts which really doesn't fit. I still don't quite know why you chose this verb here.
Is it worth paying so much attention to this? I sailed competitively on the Clarence for a few years when I was in high school, but that was in Bermuda rigged craft. I've seen, but never actually sailed a gaff-rigged boat like your Βλοῦνως. Well, anyway, let's get to your understanding of it.
  • αἰρομένους - soaring, looming, towering (translate the perfect as the next (sequential) step after the verb - after you raise it up, what does it do? It towers or something like that. I chose this verb because it is man-made, i.e. "artificially" put into a high position. I assume you realise this is with ἰστούς, right?
  • λελυμένον - unfurled (before being raised it was all bunched up, but now it is open). Perhaps this picture will help;
    Image
  • ὑπεραιωρουμένου - of the one raised above
  • A ποῦς "sheet" (main sheet or jib sheet) actually sort of holds a sail down (in your translation it sounds like the rope at the bottom holds it up), the mast together with the sail-yard (gaff) actually do the holding up.
I was actually thinking that by putting the labeled pictures for the unfamiliar words, you wouldn't need to translate, and may only have to look up ἤρτηνται in your parsing tool. If we were back in the day, that sort of verb with 2 etas and therefore 4 different possibilities would have been a challenge to search for in the dictionary.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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