θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 25th, 2015, 9:25 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:[ἐ]γένετο ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ πατρὸς μου ...
πάππος / μάμμη may be okay if you are speaking as a child or of a childhood memory. Why did you choose ὁ πατρὸς πατήρ μου over ὁ πάππος μου?
“Father’s father” is semitic, and I would guess typical of the old world everywhere. In English, although not so common in everyday speech, it is used for emphasis on the succession of generations, I think. I couldn’t remember the word for grandparents or grandfather when I was writing, and thought ὁ πατρὸς πατήρ μου fit my context reasonably well. It is interesting that ὁ πάππος appears in the Biblical text only in the apocryphal Sirach Prolog 1:7. Although, now that I look, I see it is quite common in both Josephus and Philo. I know πάππος from my limited knowledge of modern Greek ( ο παππούς /οι παππούδες) and also from my readings in Athenaze where ὁ πάππος is a main character.
Stephen Hughes wrote: λελυμένον - unfurled (before being raised it was all bunched up, but now it is open). Perhaps this picture will help;
I wanted to use the word “unfurl” (the usual "sail" word), but I couldn't quite get my head around what you were describing. For sure “unattached” is hardly a satisfying word to describe a vessel 'at full sail'! "Unattached", I'm certain, is what you try hard to avoid. ;->
Stephen Hughes wrote: I was actually thinking that by putting the labeled pictures for the unfamiliar words, you wouldn't need to translate, and may only have to look up ἤρτηνται in your parsing tool. If we were back in the day, that sort of verb with 2 etas and therefore 4 different possibilities would have been a challenge to search for in the dictionary.
I probably could have done most of it from your illustrations but when the language is so unfamiliar I like to get a sense of the range of meaning, and also see the lexical entry (nom, gen, article / derivatives). I do not yet have much confidence in my ability to see one form and then easily deduce another form with correct accent etc. I’m getting there, but need to do a lot more English to Greek before I will be confident.
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 25th, 2015, 10:08 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: I was actually thinking that by putting the labeled pictures for the unfamiliar words, you wouldn't need to translate, and may only have to look up ἤρτηνται in your parsing tool. If we were back in the day, that sort of verb with 2 etas and therefore 4 different possibilities would have been a challenge to search for in the dictionary.
As an afterthought, I did find the pictures very helpful both in reading your Greek while looking at the image of the Bluenose, and also, but much less so, in seeing just what the terms referred to. In other words, the same image that you observed as you wrote the piece, was very useful to me as I read your description.

I tend to think of images as more of an entry level teaching aid, but actually both images and video can be used very effectively for more advanced work. (Thus immigrants who learn much of their early language skills from watching TV.)

BTW I was not too surprised to hear that you have done some sailing. That wouldn't be a description that would flow so naturally from the pen of one who had no experience with sailing boats.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2015, 11:22 pm

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I'm sorry, I got the direction wrong on one picture.
Also I think you have to turn around the breathing mark on ἱστός.
:oops: Well there you go. Serves me right for typing from memory.

ἱστός / ἵστιον

The error is so pervasive in this thread! How on earth can I fix that both in composition, discussion and captions?

After this discussion, at least one thing is clearer to me; the ἀρτέμων "fore-sail" of Acts 27:40 (καὶ ἐπάραντες τὸν ἀρτέμονα τῇ πνεούσῃ κατεῖχον εἰς τὸν αἰγιαλόν.) seems to imply that that was the Ship's Storm Sail-plan.
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 26th, 2015, 10:56 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:The error is so pervasive in this thread! How on earth can I fix that both in composition, discussion and captions?
ταπεινὸν ἐστιν σε τηρεῖν· ;)
Stephen Hughes wrote:After this discussion, at least one thing is clearer to me; the ἀρτέμων "fore-sail" of Acts 27:40 (καὶ ἐπάραντες τὸν ἀρτέμονα τῇ πνεούσῃ κατεῖχον εἰς τὸν αἰγιαλόν.) seems to imply that that was the Ship's Storm Sail-plan.
ἀδύνατον γνωστῶς ἐπιγινώσκειν* τὴν γλῶσσαν πρὸ τοὺς λόγους εὑρὼν τινὰ διηγήσασθαι·

*Note: γνωστῶς ἐπιγινώσκειν = Semitism - reflecting Hebrew infinitive absolute ידע תדע as in Pro. 27:23.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 26th, 2015, 1:34 pm

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:The error is so pervasive in this thread! How on earth can I fix that both in composition, discussion and captions?
ταπεινὸν ἐστιν σε τηρεῖν· ;)
λοιπόν. συμφωνῶ. Ἡ δὲ ταπεινότης ἀρετή ἐστιν καὶ ἀγαθή, ἀλλὰ τὸ μὴ διορθοῦν τοὺς εἰκῶνας ἀχρειώσῃ αὐτούς.
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(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 26th, 2015, 2:58 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:… ἀλλὰ τὸ μὴ διορθοῦν τοὺς εἰκῶνας ἀχρειώσῃ αὐτούς
ἰδού, τὰς μερίμνας διδασκάλου·
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 27th, 2015, 3:37 am

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:… ἀλλὰ τὸ μὴ διορθοῦν [τὰς] εἰκῶνας ἀχρειώσῃ αὐτούς
ἰδού, τὰς μερίμνας διδασκάλου·
I personally judge myself as crying over spilled milk, but I think what (I think) you are trying to express, could better be expressed with a word with positive connotations, such as ἐπιμέλεια (in the singular).

ἐὰν γὰρ θέλωμεν ἐκδιηγεῖσθαι ἂν τι ἔπραξαν οἱ ναῦται αἵροντες καὶ λύοντες τὸ ἵστιον τὸ πρωραῖον καὶ τετραγωνικὸν ὅ ἐστιν ὁ ἀρτέμων, πολυχρήσιμος ἡ συζήτησις ἡμῶν ἡ περὶ τοῦ βλούνωτος. Παραγείγματος χάριν,
  • διὰ τῶν ἀνέμων / πνευσάντων τῶν ἀνέμων οὐκ εἴα τὸ κύριον ἵστιον ἀρᾶσθαι ὁ κυβερνήτης, ἀλλὰ μόνον τὸ πρωραῖον.
  • καὶ κάθως ἀντίπαλοι τοῖς ἀνέμοις αἱ ναῦται ἐπεχείρουν δῆσαι τοὺς πόδας τῇ πρύμνῃ.
[χάριν ἔχω τῷ ἐπιστήμονι κυρίῳ Κόνραδ ὅτι ἐπηνώρθωσε τὸ ἀμελὲς γένος τοῦ ἄρθρου τοῦ εἰκῶνας]
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 27th, 2015, 12:17 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:… ἀλλὰ τὸ μὴ διορθοῦν [τὰς] εἰκῶνας ἀχρειώσῃ αὐτούς
ἰδού, τὰς μερίμνας διδασκάλου·
I personally judge myself as crying over spilled milk, but I think what (I think) you are trying to express, could better be expressed with a word with positive connotations, such as ἐπιμέλεια (in the singular).
I was thinking more about the verb than the noun. Still, even though the noun seems to lean more to the fretful side of the word, once again, Paul’s use in 2Cor 11:28 fits my intent quite well. Paul seems to take this word – verb and noun – in the same way we use “care” in English. It can be negative or positive depending on context.
BDAG wrote: • μέριμνα, ης, ἡ (Hes.; Vett. Val. 131, 3; 6; 271, 3; PGiss 19, 8; 22, 11; EpArist 271; LXX.—In LXX the pl. only Da 11:26, as Hes., Op. 178 al.; PRyl 28, 219) anxiety, worry, care πᾶσα ἡ μ. ὑμῶν all your anxiety 1 Pt 5:7 (Ps 54:23); cp. Hv 3, 11, 3; 4, 2, 4f. W. obj. gen. μ. πασῶν τῶν ἐκκλησιῶν anxiety about all the churches 2 Cor 11:28. μ. τοῦ βίου the worries of life (in case τοῦ β. belongs w. μ.—UPZ 20, 29 [163 BC] τὴν τ. βίου μέριμναν) Lk 8:14. Also μ. βιωτικαί 21:34. ἡ μ. τοῦ αἰῶνος the worry of the world i.e. of the present age Mt 13:22 (s. αἰών 2a); pl. Mk 4:19. S. next entry.—B. 1092. DELG. M-M. TW.

μεριμνάω … 2. to attend to, care for, be concerned about τὶ someth. … see for example Phil 2:20, 1Cor 12:25

ἐπιμέλεια, ας, ἡ (s. ἐπιμελής and next entry; Hdt. et al. The ἐπιμ- family is especially common in administrative documents.) careful attention displayed in discharge of obligation or responsibility, care, attention, of care received ἐπιμελείας τυχεῖν be cared for … see Acts 27:3
A pastoral/pedigogical concern, as with Paul, is what I intended.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 27th, 2015, 11:01 pm

From the Titanic thread...
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἐπιβάτες τε καὶ ναῦτες
"Passengers and crew".
Thanks to Carl for pointing out in a PM that this should be "ἐπιβάται τε καὶ ναῦται".
Yes, thank you Carl. That explains why I couldn't find ἐπιβάτες with my look-up tools, although I could guess its meaning. I will tuck that phrase away in my 'nautical terms' bag.
αἱ ναῦται
Goodness gracious. Now, I spend so much effort avoiding tripping up on the broom, that I fall over the handle. :oops:
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: θάλασσα, πλοῖα, πνεῦμα, καὶ γραφαί

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 27th, 2015, 11:13 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:… ἀλλὰ τὸ μὴ διορθοῦν [τὰς] εἰκῶνας ἀχρειώσῃ αὐτούς
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote: ἰδού, τὰς μερίμνας διδασκάλου·
... I think what (I think) you are trying to express, could better be expressed with a word with positive connotations, such as ἐπιμέλεια (in the singular).
I was thinking more about the verb than the noun. Still, even though the noun seems to lean more to the fretful side of the word, once again, Paul’s use in 2Cor 11:28 fits my intent quite well. Paul seems to take this word – verb and noun – in the same way we use “care” in English. It can be negative or positive depending on context.
...
A pastoral/pedigogical concern, as with Paul, is what I intended.
Perhaps we are expressing different conceptions of how a teacher feels about their work - with yours as shepherd and mine as hireling.
2Cor.11:28 wrote:ἡ μέριμνα πασῶν τῶν ἐκκλησιῶν .
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