ὁ Τιτανικὸς

This forum is for writing about modern themes or phrases used in the classroom or for instruction that do not presume an ancient setting.
Forum rules
This forum is for discussing how to do Greek composition and practicing writing in Greek.

If you post in this forum, you are inviting people to critique what you have written and suggest ways to improve it.

Private subforums can be created for groups who want to practice together without exposing their mistakes to the world, or this can be done in public.
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

ὁ Τιτανικὸς

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 20th, 2015, 5:51 am

Size of pictures needs to be managed, giving both a small image in the thread, with the availability of a larger image for other purposes addressed too. Since Markos has chimed in, let me give a blended image / composition example:

Image
ὁ πρῶτος πλοῦς (10 Ἀπριλίου 1912). [Click here for full-size image]

Ἐν τῇ φωτογραφίᾳ ὁ Τιτανικὸς ἐκπλεῖ ἀπὸ Σαουθάμπτον, ἀλλὰ οὐδεὶς τῶν ἐπιβάτων οὔτε ὁ φωτογράφος οἶδε ὅτι οὐ εἰσπλεύσεται εἰς τὴν Νέαν Υόρκην. ὁ πρῶτος γὰρ πλοῦς ἦν καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος. μετὰ δὲ πέντε ἡμέρας ἐν τῷ Βορείῳ Ἀτλαντικῷ Ωκεανῷ ἐναυάγει ἡ ναῦς, διότι ὑβρίζων ὁ κυβερνήτης κατευθύνει τὴν ναῦν πρὸς Νέαν Υόρκην καὶ μὴ προσέχων τὸν παρόντα κίνδυνον διέπλευσεν διὰ τὸν πάγον. δυστυχῶς οὐν ἄνθρωποι ὡς χίλιοι πεντακόσιοι ἐπιβάτες τε καὶ ναῦτες ἀπώλοντο.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 400
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 20th, 2015, 9:13 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Image
ὁ πρῶτος πλοῦς (10 Ἀπριλίου 1912). [Click here for full-size image]

Ἐν τῇ φωτογραφίᾳ ὁ Τιτανικὸς ἐκπλεῖ ἀπὸ Σαουθάμπτον, ἀλλὰ οὐδεὶς τῶν ἐπιβάτων οὔτε ὁ φωτογράφος οἶδε ὅτι οὐ εἰσπλεύσεται εἰς τὴν Νέαν Υόρκην. ὁ πρῶτος γὰρ πλοῦς ἦν καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος. μετὰ δὲ πέντε ἡμέρας ἐν τῷ Βορείῳ Ἀτλαντικῷ Ωκεανῷ ἐναυάγει ἡ ναῦς, διότι ὑβρίζων ὁ κυβερνήτης κατευθύνει τὴν ναῦν πρὸς Νέαν Υόρκην καὶ μὴ προσέχων τὸν παρόντα κίνδυνον διέπλευσεν διὰ τὸν πάγον. δυστυχῶς οὐν ἄνθρωποι ὡς χίλιοι πεντακόσιοι ἐπιβάτες τε καὶ ναῦτες ἀπώλοντο.
A relatively 'flat' and uninteresting image, but with interesting text about a very familiar - and very interesting - historical event. The effect is that you look very closely and carefully at the image to try to extract any information you can derive from it.
γράφω μαθεῖν

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 20th, 2015, 2:39 pm

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:you look very closely and carefully at the image to try to extract any information you can derive from it
This really goes beyond a beginner's sub-forum topic now, but here is one of my observations:

Καὶ ἀποσχοῦσα τὸν λιμένος ἐν νηνεμίᾳ φανερῶς ἀποπλεῖ ἡ ναῦς, πλὴν ὁ ὑποπνεύσας βορρᾶς τὸν ἐν τρισὶν στήλαις ὀλίγον πρὸς νότον ἀναβαινούσαις κάπνον. ὁ δὲ κάπνος οὐκ ἐκπορεύεται ἐκ τῆς εἰς τοὔπισθεν κάπνης.

How about one of yours?

[If you have trouble getting started, you might like to try γαλήνη and κῦμα, or perhaps πρύμνα, σημεῖον, and ὑψόω].
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 400
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 20th, 2015, 7:10 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:you look very closely and carefully at the image to try to extract any information you can derive from it
This really goes beyond a beginner's sub-forum topic now, but here is one of my observations:

Καὶ ἀποσχοῦσα τὸν λιμένος ἐν νηνεμίᾳ φανερῶς ἀποπλεῖ ἡ ναῦς, πλὴν ὁ ὑποπνεύσας βορρᾶς τὸν ἐν τρισὶν στήλαις ὀλίγον πρὸς νότον ἀναβαινούσαις κάπνον. ὁ δὲ κάπνος οὐκ ἐκπορεύεται ἐκ τῆς εἰς τοὔπισθεν κάπνης.

How about one of yours?

[If you have trouble getting started, you might like to try γαλήνη and κῦμα, or perhaps πρύμνα, σημεῖον, and ὑψόω].
ναί, ὁ κάπνος ἐκπορεύεται ἐκ τῆς εἰς τοὔπισθεν κάπνης, ἀλλὰ αὐτός οὐκ ἀναβαίνει από ἡ καπνοδόκης ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἄλλων·

οὐ δύναμαι βλέπειν τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτήν εἰ μὴ διά τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν τῆς γνώσεως μου· ἐν Ἁλιφαξ, οὗ ἤμην τεθραμμένος, ἡ θάλασσα τὰ σκεύη ἀνέβαλον τοῦ κακοῦ ἐκ πολλῶν ἐτῶν· ὅτε ἤμην νήπιος, πατὴρ μου καὶ μήτηρ μου, περὶ τῆς ναυαηγίη τοῦ Τιτανικοῦ πολλάκις ἐλάλησαν καὶ περὶ τῶν βληθέντων ἐκ τῆς θαλάσσης·

ἄρα, περὶ τῆς εἰκόνος: τὸ πέλαγος τὸ ἡσύχιον κρύπτει αὐτοῦ τὸ κίνδυνον μέγα· γαλήνη ἐστιν, αλλὰ ὸυκ γαλήνη καλἠ· ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἄνω ἐισιν νεφέλαι σκοτειναί καὶ ἀπειλοῦντες. ἡ ναῦς ἔχει δισχίλιαι διακοσίας καἰ εἴκοσι τέσσαρες ψυχὰς. τί διαλογίζονται; ὅις ἐλπίζουσιν; ἃ λογίζονται τὰ πρῶτα ἐν ταῖς ψυχαῖς αὐτῶν, ἃ ταχύ εἰς τὰ βάθη τῆς θαλάσσης ἔσονται;
γράφω μαθεῖν

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 20th, 2015, 9:56 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:ἐπιβάτες τε καὶ ναῦτες
"Passengers and crew".
Thanks to Carl for pointing out in a PM that this should be "ἐπιβάται τε καὶ ναῦται".
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 400
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 21st, 2015, 3:02 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἐπιβάτες τε καὶ ναῦτες
"Passengers and crew".
Thanks to Carl for pointing out in a PM that this should be "ἐπιβάται τε καὶ ναῦται".
Yes, thank you Carl. That explains why I couldn't find ἐπιβάτες with my look-up tools, although I could guess its meaning. I will tuck that phrase away in my 'nautical terms' bag.

And thank you Stephen for the following corrections:

I should have used the interrogative instead of the relative: τί λογίζονται … instead of ἃ λογίζονται

I should have used: ἀπειλοῦσαι … instead of ἀπειλοῦντες to modify nom fem plural νεφέλαi

Also, I really wanted to say: τίνες εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; rather than ὅις ἐλπίζουσιν;

Finally, I had a difficult time finding the right language in Koine to describe the four smokestacks. What is the Hellenistic term for chimney?
γράφω μαθεῖν

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

ὁ Τιτανικὸς

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 21st, 2015, 3:24 pm

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Also, I really wanted to say: τίνες εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; rather than ὅις ἐλπίζουσιν;
How would a Ποῖαι go in your revision? (Instead of τίνες?).
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Finally, I had a difficult time finding the right language in Koine to describe the four smokestacks. What is the Hellenistic term for chimney?
For a general word for "smoke-stack", probably in the earlier period χώνη, and as time went on, it might have had its gender simplified to χωνίον and perhaps in the Byzantine period (earlier or later, I can't be sure) καμινάς may have been used for a specific type of chimney attached to a furnace.

The credence that you should give to those words is that they are poorly attested and probably the most viable Koine words on the basis of later evidence - i.e. if the word was attested at the beginning of the period and then again in a later period, it is likely that it survived through the period. The words are in that part of the lexicon where plausible conjectures with theoretical basis have possible validity. ;)

The words that you have found in LSJ, like κάπνη and especially καπνοδόκη seem to be words from the viewpoint of someone looking up at the ceiling at where the smoke will go, whereas in this picture, we are looking at the process from the outside. :)
Thomas Dolhanty wrote: Yes, thank you Carl. That explains why I couldn't find ἐπιβάτες with my look-up tools, although I could guess its meaning. I will tuck that phrase away in my 'nautical terms' bag
It was an understandable (but not acceptable) error because of my habit of taking accusatives as exemplars in the plural. Just as I mentioned earlier, the only plausible way that the dative could have been lost would have been with alternative patterns of nunation, so also I think that the only way Modern Greek declensions could have emerged from the Koine, would be if the accusative was the basic form of the noun. Parallel to the prominence of the diminutives, my two plausible (to me at least) reasons for that the accusative was the basic form that children used in speech and there was a break in the generation sequence, so that children couldn't fully form language before the model of their elders was no longer available, or that the way of teaching Greek to students Greek in the Hellenistic (or Christian) world first used a set of sentence patterns in which the accusative was prominent. You should value these statements as conjecture.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 400
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 21st, 2015, 5:13 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Also, I really wanted to say: τίνες εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; rather than ὅις ἐλπίζουσιν;
How would a Ποῖαι go in your revision? (Instead of τίνες?).
Yes, thank you. I wanted to vary from τίς and at first I thought I could just use a relative pronoun as an interrogative. I'm not the first to try that either ;-> but BDAG (τίς - 1i) says "uh uh". Ποῖαι εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; works well.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Finally, I had a difficult time finding the right language in Koine to describe the four smokestacks. What is the Hellenistic term for chimney?
For a general word for "smoke-stack", probably in the earlier period χώνη, and as time went on, it might have had its gender simplified to χωνίον and perhaps in the Byzantine period (earlier or later, I can't be sure) καμινάς may have been used for a specific type of chimney attached to a furnace.

.....

The words that you have found in LSJ, like κάπνη and especially καπνοδόκη seem to be words from the viewpoint of someone looking up at the ceiling at where the smoke will go, whereas in this picture, we are looking at the process from the outside. :) .
I think you're right. χώνη, ἡ = a funnel - or - χοάνη, ἡ = a funnel are the best choices for smokestack so far. I would combine them with καπνός maybe as genitive of purpose - χοάνη καπνοῦ. I was aware that κάπνη, ἡ, = καπνοδόχη refers really to a hole in the ceiling to let out the smoke, but it was the best I could come up with.

It is nice to stay with the same theme for a while, or else write about a context you know. When the vocab is unfamiliar, you spend a lot of time messing with vocab instead of thinking about language.
γράφω μαθεῖν

Thomas Dolhanty
Posts: 400
Joined: May 20th, 2014, 10:13 am
Location: west coast of Canada

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 21st, 2015, 10:25 pm

Original Bluenose at Full Sail
Image

τὸ πλοῖον ὀνόματι Βλοῦνως*, ὅ διερμηνευόμενος λέγεται ῥίς κυάνεα, ἦν πλοῖον δρομικόν σφοδρόν λαβὸν πολλά βραβεῖα ἐν δρόμοις πλέουσι· ὁ δὲ Βλοῦνως οἰκοδομηθεὶς ἐν Καινή Σκωτία** πρὸ ἐτῶν ἑκατὸν, ἦν τὸ καυχᾶσθαι πάσης τῆς γῆς τῆς Κάναδα εἰς ἔτη πολλά· ἀνέγραψεν οὖν ἡ εἰκὼν τοῦ Βλοῦνως ἐν μιᾷ τῶν νομισματῶν τῆς Κάναδα.

ὁ δὲ Βλοῦνως ἦν πλοῖον καλὸν εὐφραῖνον τὰς καρδίας τοῦ λαοῦ εἰς γενεὰν ὅλην. ἡ ναῦς καλὴ τῷ εἴδει, καὶ αὐτή ὀξεῖα ἦν ὅμοιον ἀετῷ πετομένῳ. καὶ ἅπαξ καὶ δίς ὁ Βλοῦνως ἐπέλιπε τοὺς δοκιμάζοντας αὐτόν·

τί βλέπεις ἐν τῂ εἰκόνι τοῦ Βλοῦνως;

*Βλοῦνως = an indecl. transliteration for “Bluenose” (masc.)
**Καινή Σκωτία = indecl name for Nova Scotia
γράφω μαθεῖν

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 22nd, 2015, 12:52 am

Thomas, what do you make of these words and phrases;

πρῶτος, ἱστιοδρομεῖν, διερμηνευόμενον, ὡς τάχιστα, Νέα Σκωτία (fully declinable in the singular), χώρα, Καναδά, χρόνους ἱκανούς / πολὺν χρόνον / χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον, ἁλιάετος and προκαλεῖσθαι?

Is the distinction; swift to action ὀξύς, swift in action ταχύς a valid one?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest