ὁ Τιτανικὸς

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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 22nd, 2015, 2:54 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Thomas, what do you make of these words and phrases;

πρῶτος, ἱστιοδρομεῖν, διερμηνευόμενον, ὡς τάχιστα, Νέα Σκωτία (fully declinable in the singular), χώρα, Καναδά, χρόνους ἱκανούς / πολὺν χρόνον / χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον, ἁλιάετος and προκαλεῖσθαι?

Is the distinction; swift to action ὀξύς, swift in action ταχύς a valid one?
An interesting assembly of terms. Thank you for the feedback. Let me address your last sentence first, and then take it from the top.
Is the distinction; swift to action ὀξύς, swift in action ταχύς a valid one?
While ταχύς might be the more typical choice, Amos 2:15 suggests to me that ‘swift’ as in a racing boat is within the lexical range of ὀξύς.
Amos 2:15 … καὶ ὁ ὀξὺς τοῖς ποσὶν αὐτοῦ οὐ μὴ διασωθῇ … - "... and he that is swift of foot shall not escape ..."
  • πρῶτος = "first" – with a very broad latitude of application (numero uno, most important, richest, best, eldest, κτλ). I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting here.
  • ἱστιοδρομεῖν – don’t know this word and can’t find it anywhere. I would guess that it means ‘to run sail(s)’ = 'to race with sailing boats'. Please tell me if that is true, and if you can cite an instance of the word, because I would really like to adopt this word!
    Note: εὐθυδρομέω = run a straight course
  • διερμηνευόμενος // διερμηνευομένη // διερμηνευόμενον = "translated", "interpreted', "explained". I don’t know what you have in mind with this one.The word in my passage is modifying “Βλοῦνως” which is deemed to be masculine (not the neuter ὀνόματι). I think my masc. nom. sg. διερμηνευόμενος is correct isn't it?
  • ὡς τάχιστα – ‘as quickly as possible’ – What’s your point here? I don’t know of any wider application of this construction.
  • Νέα Σκωτία – modern Greek for Nova Scotia – guilty as charged (with the mitigating circumstance that it was not an entity in Koine days).
  • χώρα – country, land, region etc. // instead of γῆς? γῆς is used often in the Greek Bible to refer to ‘country’ (see BDAG - γῆς #3).
  • Καναδά - modern Greek for Canada – I had this right except for the stressed sylable which is definitely Greek and not Canadian!
  • χρόνους ἱκανούς / πολὺν χρόνον / χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον – good time duration alternatives – although I find some of the other idioms like εἰς ἔτη πολλά more interesting. I think of a term like χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον as describing something like stopping over for a few weeks / months as in Acts 14. I know the range of these terms includes longer periods also, though.
  • ἁλιάετος, ὁ - the sea-eagle, osprey // I’m not sure this would be a better choice than ἀετός as a metaphor for swiftness – even for a sailboat.
  • προκαλεῖσθαι verb infinitive present middle from προκαλέω = provoke / challenge – The lexical info I’ve seen for this word sounds too hostile for a sailboat race. Can you point to such usage?
I am looking forward to a fulsome observation from you ἐν Ἑλληνικῇ on ὁ Βλοῦνως in full sail. ;)
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 22nd, 2015, 7:03 pm

I found it. I'm not sure why it doesn't appear in my local copy of LSJ:

LSJ -The Online Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English Lexicon

ἱστιοδρομέω = run under full sail, Hp.Ep.17, Plb.1.60.9, D.S.3.28.

Nice word, Stephen. Thank you.

And while I'm at it, and from the same source, I think I can see more of a case for προκαλέω as a sailboat race. It is certainly used for other than mortal combat engagements - as in Plat. Theaet. 183d which refers to a challenge to debate.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 23rd, 2015, 7:29 am

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:πρῶτος = "first" – with a very broad latitude of application (numero uno, most important, richest, best, eldest, κτλ). I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting here.
ἱστιοδρομεῖν – don’t know this word and can’t find it anywhere. I would guess that it means ‘to run sail(s)’ = 'to race with sailing boats'. Please tell me if that is true, and if you can cite an instance of the word, because I would really like to adopt this word!
Note: εὐθυδρομέω = run a straight course
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:LSJ -The Online Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English Lexicon

ἱστιοδρομέω = run under full sail, Hp.Ep.17, Plb.1.60.9, D.S.3.28.
Those are suggestions for your heading, which you left in English.
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Original Bluenose at Full Sail
ὁ πρῶτος Βλοῦνως ἱστιοδρομῶν παραπλεῖ, was what I was suggesting for your heading.

If you were considering using διαπλεῖν, I don't think it is the best choice because παρα- is to δια-, as ἐκ- is to ἀπο- or εἰς- is to προσ-, so δια- would be out of place in a limited context photograph.
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Note: εὐθυδρομέω = run a straight course
To use what you've mentioned as an opportunity to raise a question of synonymy; What would you say the distinction between εὐθυδρομεῖν and ὀρθοδρομεῖν is? δραμεῖν is a physical activity, if it is communal and competitive, then it becomes a race
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:ὅ διερμηνευόμενος
Don't you feel this phrasing is somewhat trans-gender?
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Νέα Σκωτία – modern Greek for Nova Scotia – guilty as charged (with the mitigating circumstance that it was not an entity in Koine days).

What is the Greek for Naples? Νεάπολις, right? Constantinople is called Νέα Ῥώμη too - even down to the level of having Οἱ ἑπτά λόφοι. In our idiom (way of expressing things), νέος in that sense would probably be expressed as "Another".

The Modern Greek for "new" is καινούριος which is derived from καινουργ-ής "newly made" with the pattern of the adjectival ending changed to "-ιος".
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:χώρα – country, land, region etc. // instead of γῆς? γῆς is used often in the Greek Bible to refer to ‘country’ (see BDAG - γῆς #3).
I don't really have anything definite to say about this, just to ask; Are you looking down at the ground that you live on and work (γῆς), or looking out at the expanses that role before you (in which you have space to conduct your life) (χώρα), or thinking of the way that your life is provided for by the produce of the land (χθών)?
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:χρόνους ἱκανούς / πολὺν χρόνον / χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον – good time duration alternatives – although I find some of the other idioms like εἰς ἔτη πολλά more interesting. I think of a term like χρόνον οὐκ ὀλίγον as describing something like stopping over for a few weeks / months as in Acts 14. I know the range of these terms includes longer periods also, though.
ἁλιάετος, ὁ - the sea-eagle, osprey // I’m not sure this would be a better choice than ἀετός as a metaphor for swiftness – even for a sailboat.
Just being able to make th choice is a great thing.
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:προκαλεῖσθαι verb infinitive present middle from προκαλέω = provoke / challenge – The lexical info I’ve seen for this word sounds too hostile for a sailboat race. Can you point to such usage?
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:And while I'm at it, and from the same source, I think I can see more of a case for προκαλέω as a sailboat race. It is certainly used for other than mortal combat engagements - as in Plat. Theaet. 183d which refers to a challenge to debate.
"τοὺς δοκιμάζοντας" seemed to be that you were wanting to say "challengers".
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:I am looking forward to a fulsome observation from you ἐν Ἑλληνικῇ on ὁ Βλοῦνως in full sail.
Rather than "fulsome", I've been reading about the "jetsam" (ἐκβολή) washing up near your Halifax.
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Mark Lightman
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Re: Seeing the world in Greek

Post by Mark Lightman » August 23rd, 2015, 4:10 pm

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:τί βλέπεις ἐν τῂ εἰκόνι τοῦ Βλοῦνως;
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πολλὰ βλέπω καὶ καλά. πλοῖον γὰρ βλέπω ἐπὶ θαλάσσης πλέον. νεφέλας δὲ βλέπω. τὸν δὲ ἤλιον οὐ βλέπω. βροχὴν οὖν προσδοκῶ. λέγω ὅτι τὸν Βλούνοντα βρέξει Θεός. ὕδωρ γὰρ ἐκ οὐρανοῦ πέμψει. ἰστία δὲ βλέπω πλήρη τοῦ πνεύματος. ταχέως οὖν πλεῖ ὁ Βλοῦνως.
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:ὁ δὲ Βλοῦνως ἦν πλοῖον καλὸν εὐφραῖνον τὰς καρδίας τοῦ λαοῦ εἰς γενεὰν ὅλην.
οἱ δὲ σοὶ λόγοι με εὐφραίνουσι, ὄντες Ἑλληνιστί. ἔρρωσο, φίλε Θῶμας!
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: ὁ Τιτανικὸς

Post by Jonathan Robie » August 24th, 2015, 8:25 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Also, I really wanted to say: τίνες εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; rather than ὅις ἐλπίζουσιν;
How would a Ποῖαι go in your revision? (Instead of τίνες?).
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:Also, I really wanted to say: τίνες εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; rather than ὅις ἐλπίζουσιν;
How would a Ποῖαι go in your revision? (Instead of τίνες?).
Yes, thank you. I wanted to vary from τίς and at first I thought I could just use a relative pronoun as an interrogative. I'm not the first to try that either ;-> but BDAG (τίς - 1i) says "uh uh". Ποῖαι εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; works well.
Is that the right BDAG reference? 1 is in a solid black bullet, in BDAG, the next level of hierarchy is in hollow bullets. Looking at the entry for τίς, I see ❶ⓐ and ❶ⓑ, but not ❶ⓘ. Can you give me a quote or something to help me identify the text you are looking at?
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: ὁ Τιτανικὸς

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » August 24th, 2015, 9:15 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Thomas 'Dolhanty wrote:Yes, thank you. I wanted to vary from τίς and at first I thought I could just use a relative pronoun as an interrogative. I'm not the first to try that either ;-> but BDAG (τίς - 1i) says "uh uh". Ποῖαι εἰσιν αὐτῶν αἱ ἐλπίδες; works well.
Is that the right BDAG reference? 1 is in a solid black bullet, in BDAG, the next level of hierarchy is in hollow bullets. Looking at the entry for τίς, I see ❶ⓐ and ❶ⓑ, but not ❶ⓘ. Can you give me a quote or something to help me identify the text you are looking at?
Right reference, but wrong word! Thank you for noting that - it should be BDAG for the relative pronoun ὃς - 1i.
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