Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

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This forum is for discussing how to do Greek composition and practicing writing in Greek.

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Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Wes Wood » February 5th, 2016, 12:15 am

παίδιον τις καὶ ὁ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ βλέπουσιν ἀκρίδον καταβαίνοντα εἰς φραγμὸν. βλέψας, τὸ παιδίον τρέχει εἰς τὸν φραγμὸν καὶ ψηλαφῶν εὑρίσκει αὐτόν. εὑρὼν αἰρεῖ τὸν ἀκρίδον ὑπέρ τὴν κεφαλὴν συμβιβάζειν τῷ πατρὶ ὅτι εὗρεν αὐτόν.

Again, fire away! 8-)
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 5th, 2016, 4:53 am

Have you heard of concepts called "gender" and "the third declension"? :o According to some studies on teaching Modern Greek that I came across a couple of years ago, these are the type of mistakes that 7-9 year olds might make. You can write like this with your free-writing brain, but then go back over it with your analytical brain to check that. Eventually, you are aiming to compose in your mind, then check it in your mind, then write the corrected form down. In other words, the aim is to internalise, as much as possible, the filtering.

I respect the fact that you have thrived and become an independent self-directed learner in the time since when we were more paw in glove while Lysias and the other works. I hope that you would allow me to say some superficial and obvious things about what you have written.
Wes Wood wrote:παίδιον τις καὶ ὁ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ βλέπουσιν ἀκρίδον καταβαίνοντα εἰς φραγμὸν. βλέψας, τὸ παιδίον τρέχει εἰς τὸν φραγμὸν καὶ ψηλαφῶν εὑρίσκει αὐτόν. εὑρὼν αἰρεῖ τὸν ἀκρίδον ὑπέρ τὴν κεφαλὴν συμβιβάζειν τῷ πατρὶ ὅτι εὗρεν αὐτόν.
παίδιον τις - There is a difference in gender here.
ὁ πατρὸς - one of these is nominative, and the other genitive.
ἀκρίδον - somebody could write a PhD on it if this form turned up in an ancient manuscript.
καταβαίνοντα - the case here is correct, but the gender is not.
βλέψας, τὸ παιδίον - the gender doesn't match here
τρέχει εἰς τὸν φραγμὸν - that seems like an unwise thing to do, it might be prickly.
αὐτόν - gender
τὸν ἀκρίδον - case and declension
ὑπέρ τὴν κεφαλὴν - are you trying to say "by the top of the head"?
συμβιβάζειν - "prove" in the sense of the (English) word that you are trying to use means δηλόω ("let me show you and you can see for yourself"). συμβιβάζειν means prove bring several lines of reasoning together to make a point constructed on them (QED).

There is a lack of conjunctions here. Think in terms of "no punctuation". Conjunctions are needed to break up the text. In a descriptive text like this, thing more or less flow, so words that mean "kand" or "next" might do.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Wes Wood » February 5th, 2016, 8:23 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Have you heard of concepts called "gender" and "the third declension"? :o
Bwaaahahaha! :lol: This what I deserve for rushing through, but the average or slightly below average 7-9 year old would likely have better sense than I regardless. :oops: Let me take the next two minutes and have another swing.

παίδιον τι καὶ ὁ πατρὸς αὐτοῦ βλέπουσιν ἀκρίδα καταβαίνουσαν εἰς φραγμὸν. βλέψαντα, τὸ παιδίον τρέχει πρὸς τὸν φραγμὸν καὶ ψηλαφῶν εὑρίσκει αὐτήν. εὑρὼν αἰρεῖ τὴν ἀκρίδα ὑπέρ τὴς κεφαλὴς συμβιβάζειν τῷ πατρὶ ὅτι εὗρεν αὐτὴν.
Stephen Hughes wrote: ὁ πατρὸς - one of these is nominative, and the other genitive.
Wouldn't this be correct since father is still the subject of the verb?
Stephen Hughes wrote: ὑπέρ τὴν κεφαλὴν - are you trying to say "by the top of the head"?
I was trying to say over his head, but perhaps the genitive is better suited to the task.

I've probably messed this one up, but I appreciate the feedback in advance.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 5th, 2016, 8:57 am

Wes Wood wrote:πατρὸς
Parse this, παρακαλῶ σε.
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes" wrote: ὑπέρ τὴν κεφαλὴν - are you trying to say "by the top of the head"?
I was trying to say over his head, but perhaps the genitive is better suited to the task.
My bad. I thought you were talking about the critter's head. To be clearer, for dolts and dummies, perhaps you could add an αὐτοῦ.

I don't know whether the accusative or genitive would be better. The head is part of the immediate and consequential action and not in a different part of the world, so I guess accusative.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Wes Wood » February 5th, 2016, 9:51 am

This another of those times where only the second question was enough to turn the wheel. :x
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 5th, 2016, 12:45 pm

Wes Wood wrote:This another of those times where only the second question was enough to turn the wheel. :x
If you have both internal (your experience of what you have seen, written or heard about) and external (reference works) reasons for your confidence, you may more easily stick to your original choice.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

ed krentz
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Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by ed krentz » February 5th, 2016, 1:10 pm

When I took Greek Composition in Grad School under Prof. Saul Levin his rule was that I had to be able to cite an ancient author who used the vocabulary in the sense I used it or the construction in the way I used it. I paged LSJ extensively to validate my translation of Lincoln's Gettisburg Address into classical Greek.

It got even more interesting when I had to compose in iambic trimeters, the basic meter of ancient drams.

t would be interesting if the people engaged in this exercise would have to validate their compositions from citations of the LXX, the NT, or other standard early Roman empire Greek authors, such as Epictetos, Arius Didymus, Plutarch, Ailius Aristides or Dio Chrysostom.

Just a thiught.
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Edgar Krentz
Prof. Emeritus of NT
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago

cwconrad
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Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by cwconrad » February 5th, 2016, 2:16 pm

ed krentz wrote:When I took Greek Composition in Grad School under Prof. Saul Levin his rule was that I had to be able to cite an ancient author who used the vocabulary in the sense I used it or the construction in the way I used it. I paged LSJ extensively to validate my translation of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address into classical Greek.
That would be the Saul Levin whose colleague I had hoped to be when I went to Washington University in the late summer of 1961; he was on his way to Binghamton where to this day he remains Distinguished Professor of Ancient Languages, Emeritus: https://www.binghamton.edu/cnes/people/ ... /saul.html; Phil DeLacy, who illuminated Stoic and Epicurean background and undercurrents in the NT, had already left, and Ed Krantz had recently finished a Ph.D. there. It was a considerably diminished Classcs Department to which I came; We did come into much better days later; today, fortunately, it is thriving (but I'm no longer there!)
It got even more interesting when I had to compose in iambic trimeters, the basic meter of ancient drams.

t would be interesting if the people engaged in this exercise would have to validate their compositions from citations of the LXX, the NT, or other standard early Roman empire Greek authors, such as Epictetos, Arius Didymus, Plutarch, Ailius Aristides or Dio Chrysostom.

Just a thought.
But, but ... that would require reading all those authors ... !
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » February 5th, 2016, 3:19 pm

I always remember the comments of my friend who was thrown onto the streets of Paris and required to communicate in French after only a brief and intense immersion program. He said the emotional experience was more than he had bargained for, and he couldn't decide whether he felt more like a blathering infant or babbling idiot, but either way he felt shorn of his identity. Attempting expression in Koine Greek is not quite that bad, but it is passing difficult betimes to write anything beyond the simplest expressions. And by the way, I understand and appreciate the reasons for learning to communicate in Koine via simple (really childlike) dialogue, but how many moderns could sustain a reasonably mature and sophisticated dialogue in ancient Greek?

I'm afraid there are a few leaks in the following bucket. Please don't hesitate to identify them! Move over Wes!

καὶ ἐὰν ἄνθρωπος δυνηθῇ ὡς ἀκρὶς πηδᾶν καὶ ἠδύνατο ὑπερβῆναι φραγμόν ὅ ἐστιν πήχεις διακόσιοι τὸ ὕψος. πλὴν καταβῆναι δυσκόλως σφόδρα ἐστίν καἰ δεὶ συμβιβάζειν τὸν ἄνθρωπον τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ πρὶν τὸ ψηλαφῆσαί τὴν γῆν.
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Wes Wood
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Re: Greek Composition 4x4 Challenge

Post by Wes Wood » February 5th, 2016, 7:15 pm

ed krentz wrote:When I took Greek Composition in Grad School under Prof. Saul Levin his rule was that I had to be able to cite an ancient author who used the vocabulary in the sense I used it or the construction in the way I used it. I paged LSJ extensively to validate my translation of Lincoln's Gettisburg Address into classical Greek.

It got even more interesting when I had to compose in iambic trimeters, the basic meter of ancient drams.

t would be interesting if the people engaged in this exercise would have to validate their compositions from citations of the LXX, the NT, or other standard early Roman empire Greek authors, such as Epictetos, Arius Didymus, Plutarch, Ailius Aristides or Dio Chrysostom.

Just a thiught.
I certainly wouldn't mind to do this, but my biggest constraint is time. Often, to have the time to post I am resigned to make a fool of myself for lack of research. But having said this, I do see your point. I will see if I can strike a balance moving forward.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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