5x1 definition challenge

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Wes Wood
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Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Wes Wood » February 5th, 2016, 6:57 pm

I have to admit I have found the discussion of this word to be well worth my mistake. Believe it or not, I have gained more from these activities the last two weeks than I have in the whole month prior. How about I take a swing at two more?

ἀγαλλίασις: χαρά μεγάλη
ἡ μήτηρ τοῦ νεοῦ υἱου ἐπλήσθη τὴς ἀγαλλιασεως.

ἀετός:
1) πετεινὸν μέγα ὅ εσθίει τὰ νεκρά .
2) περτεινὸν μέγα ὅ ὑψηλὸν καὶ ἰσχυρόν ἐστιν.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 5th, 2016, 8:46 pm

Wes Wood wrote:ἀετός:
1) πετεινὸν μέγα ὅ εσθίει τὰ νεκρά .
2) περτεινὸν μέγα ὅ ὑψηλὸν καὶ ἰσχυρόν ἐστιν.
What are you trying to say with ὑψηλὸν? That the bird has a larger-than-life meaning attached to it, or that it soars high up in the sky? I guess the latter. Look at Obidiah 1:4 ἐὰν μετεωρισθῇς ὡς ἀετὸς καὶ ἐὰν ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ἄστρων θῇς νοσσιάν (nest) σου ἐκεῖθεν κατάξω (I will bring down) σε λέγει κύριος. μετεωρίζεσθαι might be a verb to consider.
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Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Wes Wood » February 5th, 2016, 11:13 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:ἀετός:
1) πετεινὸν μέγα ὅ εσθίει τὰ νεκρά .
2) περτεινὸν μέγα ὅ ὑψηλὸν καὶ ἰσχυρόν ἐστιν.
What are you trying to say with ὑψηλὸν? That the bird has a larger-than-life meaning attached to it, or that it soars high up in the sky? I guess the latter. Look at Obidiah 1:4 ἐὰν μετεωρισθῇς ὡς ἀετὸς καὶ ἐὰν ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ἄστρων θῇς νοσσιάν (nest) σου ἐκεῖθεν κατάξω (I will bring down) σε λέγει κύριος. μετεωρίζεσθαι might be a verb to consider.
I was aiming for the former meaning. I was trying to convey something like revered or stately.
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Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 6th, 2016, 12:51 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:ἀετός:
1) πετεινὸν μέγα ὅ εσθίει τὰ νεκρά .
2) περτεινὸν μέγα ὅ ὑψηλὸν καὶ ἰσχυρόν ἐστιν.
What are you trying to say with ὑψηλὸν? That the bird has a larger-than-life meaning attached to it, or that it soars high up in the sky? I guess the latter. Look at Obidiah 1:4 ἐὰν μετεωρισθῇς ὡς ἀετὸς καὶ ἐὰν ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ἄστρων θῇς νοσσιάν (nest) σου ἐκεῖθεν κατάξω (I will bring down) σε λέγει κύριος. μετεωρίζεσθαι might be a verb to consider.
I was aiming for the former meaning. I was trying to convey something like revered or stately.
Before you go searching for a word corresponding to that sort of word that is broadly subjective in English, think about what nuance or connotation you would want the Greek word to have, then search for a Greek word that means the nuance or connotation you want, and see if it also means the word that you want it to mean in English.

To put that another way, think about what you associate with the word "stately". For me it would be "overshadowing", "ornately decorated" or "situated on a hill". Someone else may admire the hunter spirit of the bird, or distance its cry can be called. The background is that chances are that one or other of the classical authours already thought of that too, in relation to some bird, animal or hero. Usually that might be a poet. In many cases the English translations of terms such as "holy", "revered" or the like tend to be levelers of meaning. Seeing more in the Greek than the simple English gloss gives you is expected when reading Classical Greek. In terms of classical Greek at least, the meaning of a word in LSJ or another lexicon is there to give you the general sense of the word as it might be in some way similar to an English one. You then take that gloss and step into the world and thinking of the text, bringing your reading background, etymological associations, general and historical knowledge, and your own answers to life's unanswered questions and engage with the text. In New Testament studies, you can get away with knowing or quoting a few Greek words or grammatical rules, and people. A lexicon like assumes that you know the language to some extent and that you have experience in reading it. We are not given definitions like, ἅγιος "holy" (set apart for God's use or for use for a godly purpose), those connotations are things that are assumed that you will become acquainted with as you get through more and more texts. Saying something like, "I know 5 words for "understand", 4 words for "see" and 3 words for "holy", is perhaps just a beginning. You are expected to do more. In reading we continually build up an understanding of the words, their connotations and their relationship to other words. Lexical Entries in a work like the Great Scott are written for people who would need them. Those who are moving on from reading the usual beginning and intermediate texts, perhaps 3 - 9 years after their first experience with the language. Point being, when you want a word to express your concept in English, it is not enough just to jump to Woodhouse and then cross-reference to LSJ. You need to think intelligently (make informed guesses) about connotations, and they can be both in the immediate context and / or in the flow of the passage around that.

Before you do a Woodhouse search, or a reverse LSJ search, think about your thinking a bit. Then see what other connotations the Greek has. If you are lucky you will get a match, if not, you may get your second choice, or perhaps find a new insight that appeals to you.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 6th, 2016, 1:26 am

Wes Wood wrote:How about I take a swing at two more?
I'll quickly see your two:
πλέω - ἐν πλοίῳ μετακινεῖται.
ποιητής - ὁ ποιῶν τι.

And raise you one:
γάλα - λευκὸν ὑγρὸν ὃ ἐκκρίνεται (is secreted) ἐκ τῶν μαστῶν τῶν γυναικῶν (τῶν μητέρων) μετὰ τὸν τοκετὸν εἰς τὸ θηλάζειν τὸ βρέφος. [θηλάζειν means "give suck to"]
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Wes Wood » February 6th, 2016, 1:53 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Before you do a Woodhouse search, or a reverse LSJ search, think about your thinking a bit. Then see what other connotations the Greek has. If you are lucky you will get a match, if not, you may get your second choice, or perhaps find a new insight that appeals to you.
Since it seems appropriate to the conversation, I have been doing my best to use only words that are found more than ten times in the New Testament in my definitions. My thinking is that perhaps many of the people who visit this forum will be familiar with them already and not have to consult a lexicon to understand the new definitions. Because of this restriction, I expect to have to get creative and to lean on the reader's understanding of English. In this particular case, I didn't think the definition was a perfect fit, but I hoped the pairing with ἰσχυρόν along with the other minor contextual clue (what generally is similar to but slightly different from a vulture?) would be enough to nudge English speakers to the general idea.
Let me stir the pot a bit, because I fully expect that you are capable of doing a better job than I have and am curious about what you would come up with. If you were working with the same parameters I have been, how would you convey the idea of an eagle?
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 6th, 2016, 3:38 am

Wes Wood wrote:If you were working with the same parameters I have been, how would you convey the idea of an eagle?
Let me try to see what words over ten time are available.
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(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 6th, 2016, 6:07 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:If you were working with the same parameters I have been, how would you convey the idea of an eagle?
Let me try to see what words over ten time are available.
I would not like to be constrained by that same constraint, words occurring 10 times or more are without doubt invaluable to learn, but sadly inadequate to express much unambiguously. Perhaps a different type of constraint might be to always have the words in the explanation simpler (shorter) than the head word, or more common, but I wouldn't like that constraint as yet either. :twisted:
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 7th, 2016, 12:34 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:If you were working with the same parameters I have been, how would you convey the idea of an eagle?
Let me try to see what words over ten time are available.
I would not like to be constrained by that same constraint, words occurring 10 times or more are without doubt invaluable to learn, but sadly inadequate to express much unambiguously. Perhaps a different type of constraint might be to always have the words in the explanation simpler (shorter) than the head word, or more common, but I wouldn't like that constraint as yet either. :twisted:
How about, as a compromise to the 10 times or more criterion, all words in the definition that are not common New Testament words, could be glossed. There might be several formats to do that. Here are four formats:
Inline word by word translation wrote:ὑπερβάλλων - ὁ ὑπερβαίνων (going over, exceeding) ὃ θεωρεῖται (is considered) κανωνικόν (regular)
OR
word definitions following wrote:ὑπερβάλλων - ὁ ὑπερβαίνων ὃ θεωρεῖται κανωνικόν [ὑπερβαίνειν - to go over, to exceed, θεωρεῖσθαι - to be considered, κανωνικός - regular]
OR
Greek definition followed by an English one wrote:ὑπερβάλλων - ὁ ὑπερβαίνων ὃ θεωρεῖται κανωνικόν "that which exceeds what is considered regular"
OR
English definitions of words given, but confined to footnotes wrote:ὑπερβάλλων - ὁ ὑπερβαίνων¹ ὃ θεωρεῖται² κανωνικόν³.

Ὑποσημειώσεις (Footnotes)
¹ὑπερβαίνειν - to go over, to exceed, ²θεωρεῖσθαι - to be considered, ³κανωνικός - regular)
Personally, I prefer the last one where the English is confined to the footnotes.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: 5x1 definition challenge

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 7th, 2016, 4:06 am

Rather than starting another thread to test something that is little more than an extension of something we are already doing, let me just slip this in here. Do you think that this a useful way to introduce vocabulary items in a L1-L1 format?

Ἐπίλεξον τὸν ὁρισμὸν τὸν ἀντιστοιχοῦντα τοῖς ἐξῆς ῥήμασι.

(1) Φαραώ
(Α) ὁ τίτλος τῶν ἡγεμόνων (βασιλέων) τῆς ἀρχαίας Aἰγύπτου.
(Β) ὁ τίτλος Ρωμαίων αὐτοκρατόρων.
(Γ) ὁ τίτλος Ρωμαίου ἄρχοντος, ὁ διοικητής ἐπαρχίας.
(Δ) ὁ τίτλος τοῦ ἀνωτάτου ἄρχοντος.
(Ε) Οὐδὲν ἐκ τῶν ἐπάνω (γεγραμμένων).

Ἡ ἐπιλογή σου - ( _____ )

(2) ποταμός
(Α) ἐκτεταμένον κοίλωμα τοῦ ἐδάφους ὃ περιέχει νηρὸν (γλυκὺ) ὕδωρ καὶ οὐκ ἐπικοινωνεῖ (ἀμέσως) τῇ θαλάσσῃ
(Β) τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ πίπτον συνόλως ὡς βροχή, χάλαζα ἢ χιών.
(Γ) μέγα φυσικὸν ῥεῦμα νηροῦ (γλυκέος) ὕδατος.
(Δ) κοῖλον σκεύος ἀφ' οὗ πίνομεν ὕδωρ ἢ ἄλλα ποτά.
(Ε) Οὐδὲν ἐκ τῶν ἐπάνω (γεγραμμένων).

Ἡ ἐπιλογή σου - ( _____ )

Ὑποσημειώσεις (Footnotes)
ἐπιλέγειν - to choose (by indicating (pointing) rather than removing (personally or at all), cf. ἐκλέγω), ὁρισμὸς - definition, ἀντιστοιχεῖν - stand opposite, correspond to, αὐτοκράτωρ - emperor, διοικητής - governor, ἐπαρχία - province, ἀνώτατος - highest, ἐπάνω - above, ἐκτείνειν - to extend, κοίλωμα - cavity, depression, ἔδαφος - surface of the earth, ground, περιέχειν - to contain, νηρός - fresh, γλυκύς - sweet, ἐπικοινωνεῖν - to be in touch with, ἀμέσως - directly, without anything standing in the way, πίπτειν - fall, συνόλως - all together, βροχή - rain shower, χάλαζα - hail, χιών - snow, φυσικὸς - natural (not man-made), ῥεῦμα - stream, κοῖλος - hollow, σκεύος - vessel, ποτόν - drink.

κλεῖς (Key)
(1) [Α - Φαραώ, Β - Καῖσαρ, Γ - Ἀνθύπατος, Δ - Βασιλεύς]
(2) [Α - λιμήν, Β - ὑετός, Γ - ποταμός, Δ - ποτήριον]
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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