1 Kingdoms 18:5 wrote:πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐντελλομένου τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ
All the people heard about the king's command to all his generals regarding Absalom
1 Kingdoms 18:5 wrote:πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐντελλομένου τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ
All the people heard about the king's command to all his generals regarding Absalom
MAubrey wrote:I came across this example in 2 Kingdoms over the weekend. I kind of wonder if participles are more useful in Greek for such constructions:2 Kingdoms 18:5 wrote:πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐντελλομένου τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ
All the people heard about the king's command to all his generals regarding Absalom
Ken M. Penner wrote:That's a genitive absolute: When the king was commanding all his leaders about Absalom, all the people heard it.
The translator wrote:καὶ πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐντελλομένου τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ.
Genitive object wrote:καὶ πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐντἀλματος τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ
Nominal equivalent to a genitive absolute wrote:καὶ πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐν ἐντἀλματι τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ
MAubrey wrote:Ken M. Penner wrote:That's a genitive absolute: When the king was commanding all his leaders about Absalom, all the people heard it.
That's debatable, since ἀκουω can take genitive objects.
Whether it is or it isn't has no bearing on my point.
Ken M. Penner wrote:You recognize that it's not a noun but a participle, right? I think that puts it in a different category; after all, none of the examples of genitives in this thread have been participles.
MAubrey wrote:Part of me wonders whether such usage could be preferably done with participles instead...
.Ken M. Penner wrote:It seems to me that this is not a substantive passive participle "what was being commanded" but a middle participle.
Ken M. Penner wrote:When the passive participle of ἐντέλλω is intended substantivally "commandment", not the present but the perfect is normally used.
cwconrad wrote:Text: πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐντελλομένου τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ
For my money, this is pretty clearly an instance of noun + ptc. in genitive functioning as complement of ἤκουσεν. Genitive absolutes ordinarily appear in advance of the main clause of a sentence and set forth the circumstances of the event narrated. That is to say, IF this were intended as a genitive absolute, I would expect the word order:
ἐντελλομένου τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ, πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν.
Ken M. Penner wrote:cwconrad wrote:Text: πᾶς ὁ λαὸς ἤκουσεν ἐντελλομένου τοῦ βασιλέως πᾶσιν τοῖς ἄρχουσιν ὑπὲρ Ἀβεσσαλώμ
Maybe I've been too immersed in LXX lately. The temporal expression is the one that seemed natural to me. The Greek translators were rendering the Hebrew phrase that the MT points as שָׁמְעוּ בְּצַוֹּת הַמֶּלֶךְ, which is a temporal expression (see the NRSV "And all the people heard when the king gave orders"). So I'd say they were intending it as a genitive absolute, not as the complement of ἤκουσεν. Whether it was read like that is a different question.
Ken M. Penner wrote:MAubrey wrote:Ken M. Penner wrote:That's a genitive absolute: When the king was commanding all his leaders about Absalom, all the people heard it.
That's debatable, since ἀκουω can take genitive objects.
Whether it is or it isn't has no bearing on my point.
You recognize that it's not a noun but a participle, right? [...]
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