II Samuel 7:10-14

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II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby Wes Wood » October 19th, 2013, 2:46 pm

10 καὶ θήσομαι τόπον τῷ λαῷ μου τῷ Ισραηλ καὶ καταφυτεύσω αὐτόν, καὶ κατασκηνώσει καθ᾽ ἑαυτὸν καὶ οὐ μεριμνήσει οὐκέτι, καὶ οὐ προσθήσει υἱὸς ἀδικίας τοῦ ταπεινῶσαι αὐτὸν καθὼς ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς
11 ἀπὸ τῶν ἡμερῶν, ὧν ἔταξα κριτὰς ἐπὶ τὸν λαόν μου Ισραηλ, καὶ ἀναπαύσω σε ἀπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐχθρῶν σου, καὶ ἀπαγγελεῖ σοι κύριος ὅτι οἶκον οἰκοδομήσεις αὐτῷ.
12 καὶ ἔσται ἐὰν πληρωθῶσιν αἱ ἡμέραι σου καὶ κοιμηθήσῃ μετὰ τῶν πατέρων σου, καὶ ἀναστήσω τὸ σπέρμα σου μετὰ σέ, ὃς ἔσται ἐκ τῆς κοιλίας σου, καὶ ἑτοιμάσω τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ·
13 αὐτὸς οἰκοδομήσει μοι οἶκον τῷ ὀνόματί μου, καὶ ἀνορθώσω τὸν θρόνον αὐτοῦ ἕως εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.
14 ἐγὼ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ εἰς πατέρα, καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι εἰς υἱόν· καὶ ἐὰν ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀδικία αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐλέγξω αὐτὸν ἐν ῥάβδῳ ἀνδρῶν καὶ ἐν ἁφαῖς υἱῶν ἀνθρώπων·

I have been thinking about this passage recently, and I am wrestling with these phrases. I believe I understand them, but would appreciate some feedback. In the first light blue example (woodenly) "I will raise the seed of you after you." Am I correct that either of the two following meanings would be possible? "I will raise one of your living descendants directly after you," or "I will raise up one of your descendants, who has not yet been born, after you".

In the second red example (woodenly) "if the wrong of him occurs, then I will discipline him with the rod of men." Here, I am struggling with the subjunctive. This can mean that he might not transgress or imply that he probably will, right?

I am trying to get as much meaning from this passage as is actually there, but please let me know if I am going beyond that.

Also, I know it is off topic, but if anyone will give me any insight as to the original Hebrew I would appreciate it. Is this truly a passage that can be translated "Even in his suffering for iniquity; I shall chasten him with the rod of men (with the rod due to men)." which, I believe (this citation is from memory only) is Clarke following Lowth's commentary pg. 187. On a side note, Dr. Buth's comments the other day inspired me to learn Hebrew as well, and I have been plugging away at that goal for the last week and a half now. So thank you, Dr. Buth, and thank all of you for reading this terrible wall of text!
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » October 20th, 2013, 1:04 am

Wes Wood wrote:Am I correct that either of the two following meanings would be possible? "I will raise one of your living descendants directly after you," or "I will raise up one of your descendants, who has not yet been born, after you".

I don't think there's anything specific about the Greek text to answer your question. I'd recommend doing a quick study on the phrase "seed after" and looking at the parallel in 1 Chronicles 17 to get a feel for the usage.

Wes Wood wrote:In the second red example (woodenly) "if the wrong of him occurs, then I will discipline him with the rod of men." Here, I am struggling with the subjunctive. This can mean that he might not transgress or imply that he probably will, right?


This is a textbook third class condition. It might happen; it might not happen. It doesn't imply anything about probability. "If it rains tomorrow, we'll have to cancel our picnic."

Wes Wood wrote:Also, I know it is off topic, but if anyone will give me any insight as to the original Hebrew I would appreciate it. Is this truly a passage that can be translated "Even in his suffering for iniquity; I shall chasten him with the rod of men (with the rod due to men)."

I have no idea where the commentator got the notion of 'in his suffering for' here. It's a straightforward infinitive with a prepositional prefix and subject-pronominal suffix. I would render either "If he commits iniquity" or "When he commits iniquity." I would also take 'the rod of men' to be 'the rod wielded by men' or as a simple appositive (the rod = men), describing divine use of human agents in dispensing justice. But this is all a bit beyond our normal B-Greek parameters.
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby Wes Wood » October 20th, 2013, 1:37 am

Thank you, Timothy. That was very helpful. I did not catch my use of implication. At the back of my mind, I was trying to decide if the passages were referring to Jesus, Solomon, or perhaps both. The probability in this last instance came from the certainty of a man sinning and not from something about the text itself.

I also thank you additionally for weighing in on the Hebrew.
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby Ken M. Penner » October 20th, 2013, 7:32 am

One major difference between the Hebrew Masoretic Text and the Greek in 2 Sam 7:14 derives from a different division of the Hebrew consonants into words.
The Masoretic Text has ב‍העות‍ו, i.e. B (in) H`WT (committing iniquity) W (of him).
The Greek translator seems to have read בא עונ‍ו B' (coming) `WN (iniquity) W (of him).
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby David Lim » October 21st, 2013, 7:25 am

Wes Wood wrote:[...]
12 καὶ ἔσται ἐὰν πληρωθῶσιν αἱ ἡμέραι σου καὶ κοιμηθήσῃ μετὰ τῶν πατέρων σου, καὶ ἀναστήσω τὸ σπέρμα σου μετὰ σέ, ὃς ἔσται ἐκ τῆς κοιλίας σου, καὶ ἑτοιμάσω τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ·
[...]

I have been thinking about this passage recently, and I am wrestling with these phrases. I believe I understand them, but would appreciate some feedback. In the first light blue example (woodenly) "I will raise the seed of you after you." Am I correct that either of the two following meanings would be possible? "I will raise one of your living descendants directly after you," or "I will raise up one of your descendants, who has not yet been born, after you".

My opinion is not shared by many others, but I consider it grammatically impossible for "μετα σε" to modify "το σπερμα σου" because the second has the article while the first lacks it, based on insufficient evidence for such constructions. That would exclude "I will raise up ( your descendant who is after you )".
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby Wes Wood » October 21st, 2013, 12:12 pm

That gives me something to look at and think about. Thank you.
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby Wes Wood » October 21st, 2013, 12:19 pm

David, just so I don't misunderstand you, how would you translate this particular phrase.
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby David Lim » October 23rd, 2013, 5:12 am

Wes Wood wrote:David, just so I don't misunderstand you, how would you translate this particular phrase.

"ἀναστήσω τὸ σπέρμα σου μετὰ σέ" = "I will raise up your seed after you" which here implies "Your days will be fulfilled and you will sleep with your fathers, and then after that I will raise up your descendant, who will be out of your belly, and I will prepare his kingdom."
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby David Lim » October 23rd, 2013, 5:20 am

And by the way, Ken, can you explain why the LXX used "εσται εαν ...", instead of "εσται οταν" or something, since it is a certainty that his days will indeed be fulfilled?
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Re: II Samuel 7:10-14

Postby Wes Wood » October 23rd, 2013, 7:03 am

Thank you, David. That is what I thought you meant, but I wanted to be sure before I headed wrong down the wrong bunny trail.
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