2Chr 6:19,Ps.101:18 ἐπιβλέπειν ἐπὶ τὴν προσευχὴν ...

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Ken M. Penner
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Re: 2Chr 6:19,Ps.101:18 ἐπιβλέπειν ἐπὶ τὴν προσευχὴν ...

Post by Ken M. Penner » December 18th, 2015, 9:09 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Ken, are you choosing an example with ἐπιβλέπειν collocated with a place significantly?
No.
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S Walch
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Re: 2Chr 6:19,Ps.101:18 ἐπιβλέπειν ἐπὶ τὴν προσευχὴν ...

Post by S Walch » December 21st, 2015, 12:43 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:I see.

There is a certain incongruity between our usually translating it as prayer, and it meaning "synagogue" in Jewish papyri. Is there an explanation for that?
That would just boil down to how a person uses a word.

Philo I'm to understand only ever uses προσευχή to refer to the Synagogue, aka, a "place of prayer" (TDNT Vol. 2, Page 807) without using it according to how we see it in the LXX (as a translation of תפלה).

The NT follows the main use of the LXX; however both the LXX and NT do use it to refer to a location where prayer takes place (1 Macc 3:46 & 7:20 (though here we have τοπος with προσευχη), Acts 16:13, 16), but this doesn't necessarily indicate that they had a Synagogue in mind. The NT is quite unanimous in transliterating it as συναγωγη. The LXX more has συναγωγη in its usual sense of "gathering".

One may conclude that the use of the words προσευχή and συναγωγη to refer to separate things was still developing at the dawn of the 1st Century CE, though becoming more concrete by the 40's/50's.

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Re: 2Chr 6:19,Ps.101:18 ἐπιβλέπειν ἐπὶ τὴν προσευχὴν ...

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 22nd, 2015, 8:23 pm

Thank you for that. I have two more questions:
By way of a casual observation, the religious landscape of the OT seems to centre around the tabernacle then the temple. In the New Testament we find Jesus in the Temple and synagogues. Are synagogues a new concept that needed a word?

Could the use you've just explained as a development over time also be explained as a regional usage? Why not?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Ken M. Penner
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Re: 2Chr 6:19,Ps.101:18 ἐπιβλέπειν ἐπὶ τὴν προσευχὴν ...

Post by Ken M. Penner » December 22nd, 2015, 10:22 pm

Much of the data and reasoning relevant for the direction this discussion has taken can be found at http://www.pohick.org/sts/index.html
Ken M. Penner
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: 2Chr 6:19,Ps.101:18 ἐπιβλέπειν ἐπὶ τὴν προσευχὴν ...

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 24th, 2015, 4:18 pm

S Walch wrote:προσ-ευχή is pretty much the translational equivalent for the Hebrew תפִלה, which is mostly translated as "prayer", however I think that "plea" or "request" should be used more frequently than they are. "Request" makes a lot of sense for 2 Chron 6:19 and Psalm 101:18 (102:17 Heb), which would remove the supplication/thanksgiving/adoration/confession thoughts which usually come to mind in the modern use of "prayer".

So "consider the request" or "give heed to the request" would be my choice of translation for the above verses.
Does προσευχή refer more to the "act of praying", or to the "content of the prayer".
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

S Walch
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Re: 2Chr 6:19,Ps.101:18 ἐπιβλέπειν ἐπὶ τὴν προσευχὴν ...

Post by S Walch » December 24th, 2015, 5:00 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:By way of a casual observation, the religious landscape of the OT seems to centre around the tabernacle then the temple. In the New Testament we find Jesus in the Temple and synagogues. Are synagogues a new concept that needed a word?
I'm afraid you're asking a question that is out of my area of expertise. However I do recall reading an article online that talked about a carved stone block found in an old Synagogue that had the Herodian Temple on it ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world ... daism.html

(Found again whilst typing the above)

From that article, it does appear that the Synagogues did become a "small temple", so to speak, which probably did require a new term to refer to it as.
Could the use you've just explained as a development over time also be explained as a regional usage? Why not?
It could be regional usage as well that funneled down into everyday speech. Wouldn't have much of an argument against that.
Does προσευχή refer more to the "act of praying", or to the "content of the prayer".
Not 100% on this one, but looking through the uses in the LXX and Hebrew Tanakh for προσευχη/תפלה, it is the content of the prayer rather than the act that is in view.

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