Zach.2:8 ἡ κόρη τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ αὐτοῦ בָבַת עֵינֹֽו

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S Walch
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Re: Zach.2:8 ἡ κόρη τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ αὐτοῦ בָבַת עֵינֹֽו

Post by S Walch » February 8th, 2017, 5:57 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Recognising that the relationship between the Hebrew and Greek of Job is different to the more woody (encoded Hebrew) situation in Zechariah, have a look at this use of נוּף with עֲלֵ in this verse:
Job 31:21 wrote:אִם־הֲנִיפֹ֣ותִי עַל־יָתֹ֣ום יָדִ֑י כִּֽי־אֶרְאֶ֥ה בַ֝שַּׁ֗עַר עֶזְרָתִֽי׃
Does the Hebrew suggest that Job was
[A]cting aggressively or with hostility towards the orphans
Yes
[O]r that he guestured to them or that he shunned them in their plight
Yes
[O]r that he made a legal judgement against them
Not quite so much this.

Essentially, the Hebrew is saying that the orphans were either

a) Struck somewhat
or
b) waved away

in order to get them to disperse, because ain't nobody got time for that.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Zach.2:8 ἡ κόρη τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ αὐτοῦ בָבַת עֵינֹֽו

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 8th, 2017, 11:31 pm

Thanks for your help. It seems that this Greek in Zechariah is best understood by reading the Hebrew Vorlage.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

S Walch
Posts: 135
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Zach.2:8 ἡ κόρη τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ αὐτοῦ בָבַת עֵינֹֽו

Post by S Walch » February 9th, 2017, 7:55 am

It's just an unfortunate word choice with επιφερω in v9. LXX Isaiah does better with επιβαλλω.

Granted, a much better word would've been ἐπισείω, and would bring across the meaning of the Hebrew a lot better. Though it appears only the translators of Judges, 1-2 Kings and 1-2 Chron's used it, and only to translate the Hebrew סות - to incite/mislead.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Zach.2:8 ἡ κόρη τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ αὐτοῦ בָבַת עֵינֹֽו

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 9th, 2017, 1:29 pm

S Walch wrote:It's just an unfortunate word choice with επιφερω in v9. LXX Isaiah does better with επιβαλλω.
Your feeling probably comes from a difference in the language from the LXX time (or dialect) and the New Testament. There are quite a few verses were ἐπιφέρειν is used of hands involved in aggresive or harmful acts. Here are two:
Genesis 37:22 wrote:χεῖρα δὲ μὴ ἐπενέγκητε αὐτῷ.
וְיָד אַל־תִּשְׁלְחוּ־בֹו
1 Kings 26:11 (1 Samuel 26:11) wrote:μηδαμῶς μοι παρὰ κυρίου ἐπενεγκεῖν χεῖρά μου ἐπὶ χριστὸν κυρίου.
חָלִילָה לִּי מֵֽיהוָה מִשְּׁלֹחַ יָדִי בִּמְשִׁיחַ יְהוָה
In both of these the construction in the Hebrew is -שָׁלַח ב, rather than נוּף עֲלֵ. Perhaps the translator of Zechariah 2:8 felt that ἐπιφέρειν expressed נוּף עֲלֵ adequately.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

S Walch
Posts: 135
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Zach.2:8 ἡ κόρη τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ αὐτοῦ בָבַת עֵינֹֽו

Post by S Walch » February 9th, 2017, 1:56 pm

Whilst Gen 37:22 and 1 Kings 26:11 are certainly aggressive, the Hebrew -שָׁלַח ב is essentially indicating a "sending out to grab", and not necessarily an aggressive type of action (cf Gen 3:22; Judg 3:22).

Checking the LXX Concordance, I do see that επιφερω does indeed translate שָׁלַח the most times.

The question would then arise: did the Hebrew Vorlage of Zechariah have שָׁלַח instead of ? נוּף

שלח יד is a more common phrase than נוף יד.
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