Deuteronomy 5:30

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Saboi
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Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Saboi » February 2nd, 2019, 6:43 pm

βάδισον εἰπὸν αὐτοῖς ἀποστράφητε ὑμεῖς εἰς τοὺς οἴκους ὑμῶν
לך אמר להם שובו לכם לאהליכם

I came across this confusing verse and find that "βάδισον" is not in any lexicon and there isn't even an entry on the word study tool
but i know it related too βαδίζω "walk".

What alternative verb should be used? πόρευε or βαῖνε?

The other problem is that εἰπὸν is aorist and vulgar uses present verbs but there is no present forms of εἰπὸν,
then shouldn't the fitting verb be ἀγόρευε and why οἴκους and not a word for tent.

πόρευε ἀγόρευε αὐτοῖς ἀποστράφητε ὑμεῖς αὐλία ὑμῶν?
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Lee Magee

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 3rd, 2019, 12:59 am

I'm not sure exactly what your point is, but both βάδισον and εἰπόν are second person singular aorist imperatives, offering a rather literal translation of the qual imperatives לֵ֖ךְ אֱמֹ֣ר. Of course, εἰπόν is a bit funky in that it uses a first aorist ending on a second aorist stem, but that's not unusual in the LXX. οἶκος can be a generic term for "dwelling" as well as "house."
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Saboi
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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Saboi » February 3rd, 2019, 11:58 am

I don't understand why the Septuagint would translate in such a way and ἀποστράφητε[שבנה] also mistranslated and since שובו follows לכם, it should be read as a single verb in the middle passive voice.

שובולכם > ἀποστρέφεσθε
אמרלהם > εἰρέοντο

I am not sure if that is correct, since שובו can also translate ἕζεσθε "seat oneself" as a from of ישב.

לך אמרלהם שובולכם לאהליכם
ἴτε εἰρέοντο ἕζεσθε οἴκαδε ῡ̔μέ
ergō dīc eīs sedēte domūs

Would these translation be more accurate?
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Lee Magee

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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 3rd, 2019, 11:50 pm

Saboi wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 11:58 am
I don't understand why the Septuagint would translate in such a way and ἀποστράφητε[שבנה] also mistranslated and since שובו follows לכם, it should be read as a single verb in the middle passive voice.

שובולכם > ἀποστρέφεσθε
אמרלהם > εἰρέοντο

I am not sure if that is correct, since שובו can also translate ἕζεσθε "seat oneself" as a from of ישב.

לך אמרלהם שובולכם לאהליכם
ἴτε εἰρέοντο ἕζεσθε οἴκαδε ῡ̔μέ
ergō dīc eīs sedēte domūs

Would these translation be more accurate?
Why do I think of "Romanes eunt domus" here? At any rate, Jerome's Latin actually has:

vade et dic eis revertimini in tentoria vestra...

לָכֶ֖ם follows שׁ֥וּבוּ, right? However, I think ἀποστράφητε fits the criterion you suggest:
BDAG wrote:⑤ turn back w. 2 aor. pass. in act. sense (Heraclides Pont., Fgm. 49 Wehrli: the statue of Hera ἀπεστράφη=turned around; Noah’s raven οὐκ ἀπεστράφη πρὸς αὐτὸν εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν, cp. ApcMos 42) fig. ἀπεστράφησαν ἐν τ. καρδίαις εἰς Αἴγυπτον Ac 7:39 D. Various forms of GJs 8:1 (s. 3 end; the text of Tdf. and the vv.ll. in de Strycker) point to the rendering because (Mary) did not turn back to go with them.—DELG s.v. στρέφω. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 123). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

So that it's a fine translation of שוב (which is inarguably the correct verb here).
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Saboi
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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Saboi » February 4th, 2019, 1:19 am

There is one other instance of ἀποστράφητε in Ruth 1:8 a translation of שבנה in the Latin it is fecistis

Ruth 1:8 : ἀποστράφητε - שבנה

That same verb appears in Ruth 1:12 that the Septuagint reads as ἐπιστράφητε and Latin as revertimini and ἐπιστράφητε appears in Deuteronomy 1:7 as a translation of פנו/revertimini (verb 2nd pl pres ind pass) and in Deuteronomy 2:3 that combines פנו לכם into ἐπιστράφητε and contra.

ἀναστρέφω & ἀποστρέφω and ἐπιστρέφω are prefixed with a preposition and not entirely sure if Hebrew words have built in preposition in its word. They are many forms of στρέφω .

στρέφω "twist"
ἀναστρέφω "turn upside down"
ἀποστρέφω "turn back"
ἐπιστρέφω "turn about, turn round"
ἀντιστρέφω "turn to the opposite side"
διαστρέφω "turn different ways, twist about"
καταστρέφω "turn down"
ἐκστρέφω "turn out of"
ἐνστρέφω "turn in"
προστρέφω "bring up in"
ὑποστρέφω "turn around about"
μεταστρέφω "turn about, turn round"
παραστρέφω "turn aside"
περιστρέφω "whirl around"
συστρέφω "twist up, roll up"
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Lee Magee

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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 4th, 2019, 10:52 am

Saboi wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 1:19 am
There is one other instance of ἀποστράφητε in Ruth 1:8 a translation of שבנה in the Latin it is fecistis

Ruth 1:8 : ἀποστράφητε - שבנה
No,Jerome renders עֲשִׂיתֶ֛ם with fēcistis. Remember also that there are other issues than simply translation, and that includes the text critical. There is no guarantee that the LXX translators and Jerome were looking at the same Vorlage. In the case of Ruth 1:8, Jerome appears not to translate שֹּׁ֔בְנָה at all, so that 1) It didn't appear in his Vorlage or 2) It dropped out of the Latin manuscripts sometime during the course of transmission or 3) He simply rendered "Go and return" with the one imperative ītē for economy of expression.

Also, while I find Hebrew and Latin loads of fun, we need to concentrate particularly on the Greek, since this is the B-GREEK forum...
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Saboi
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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Saboi » February 4th, 2019, 3:52 pm

I primarily study the Septuagint and there isn't many people who are interested in it.

I used Ruth 1:8 as an example but that verse is bothering me, even the King James translation doesn't read right and also 1:11.

"And Naomi said unto her two daughters in law, Go, return each to her mother's house"
"Naomi said, Turn again, my daughters: why will ye go with me"

καὶ εἶπεν Νωεμιν ταῖς νύμφαις αὐτῆς πορεύεσθε δὴ ἀποστράφητε ἑκάστη εἰς οἶκον μητρὸς αὐτῆς

The duel case of Greek is never used in the Septuagint so the number of in-laws is not expressed, but wouldn't that be δυοῖν νυμφαιν

שבנה is only used in those Ruth verses so the translators have struggled with it, but the translation is ἕζεσθον and לכנה is ἑαυταῖν and αὐτῆς should be αὐταῖν, perhaps the duel case is causing the translation problems and Latin doesn't have a duel.

It's interesting that the name Νωεμιν resembles a duel noun similar too the transliteration for Egypt, "Μεσραιμ" that is μέσ-ῥόοιν "between streams", this name appear in Linear B and her Naomi's character revolves around two in-laws of her two sons.

εἶπεν Νωεμιν δυοῖν νυμφαιν αὐταῖν ἑαυταῖν ἕζεσθον ἑκάστᾳ οἴκαδε μητρὸς αὐτῆς
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Lee Magee

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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Ken M. Penner » February 5th, 2019, 8:51 am

I'm confused about what you are asking or trying to accomplish.

Are you wondering why the dual is not used? It had fallen out of use by the Koine period. Sure, you might find it in the Sibylline Oracles and other imitations of epic poetry. But it would have seemed really archaic. So the dual (not "case" but "number") is not causing translation problems.
I am pretty sure the translators did not struggle with שבנה. That's common enough formation.
The name Νωεμιν does not resemble a dual noun in Greek (or Hebrew) because there's always a vowel before the dual ending ιν.

I suggest instead of correcting the LXX, use it to correct your own translation. If it differs from how you would have translated the Hebrew, learn from it.
For example, instead of "should be" you might say "I would have expected."
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Saboi
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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Saboi » February 5th, 2019, 11:17 am

The translations of the Old Testament depends of the LXX and ancient Hebrews words are defined though the LXX so it effect the overall message and tone.

i roughly translated the next verse into this.

Deuteronomy 5:31
καὶ σὺ ὧδε στᾶθι μετ ἐμοῦ καὶ λαλήσω πρὸς σὲ ὅλοις τούς θεσμούς καὶ τᾶς δίκᾶς καὶ τᾶς θέμιστας ὅσα μαθήσεις αὐτούς καὶ ἔφυον ἔρασδε ἐγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς τῇς παραδόσεις

You here stand with me and speak unto thee all the laws and the rights and the decrees
which thou shall teach them and put forth to the earth that i give to them through your traditions.
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Lee Magee

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Re: Deuteronomy 5:30

Post by Ken M. Penner » February 5th, 2019, 11:50 am

I think I'm beginning to understand what you are doing. Is this right:
You are translating from Hebrew into Greek, then translating that Greek into English.
If so:
This is an interesting exercise, but I'm not sure why you are doing it. One summer when I was a grad student I translated the book of Ruth from Hebrew to Greek, then compared my Greek to the LXX. I did this to sharpen my Hebrew reading and Greek composition skills, and to get a sense of how the LXX translators thought. I first wondered if you trying to do something similar, but after looking closer at your translations into Greek, I see that is not the case.
Lee Magee wrote:καὶ σὺ ὧδε στθι μετ ἐμοῦ καὶ λαλήσω πρὸς σὲ ὅλοις τούς θεσμούς καὶ τᾶς δίκᾶς καὶ τᾶς θέμιστας ὅσα μαθήσεις αὐτούς καὶ ἔφυον ἔρασδε ἐγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς τῇς παραδόσεις
Rahlfs LXX wrote:σὺ δὲ αὐτοῦ στῆθι μετʼ ἐμοῦ, καὶ λαλήσω πρὸς σὲ τὰς ἐντολὰς καὶ τὰ δικαιώματα καὶ τὰ κρίματα, ὅσα διδάξεις αὐτούς, καὶ ποιείτωσαν ἐν τῇ γῇ, ἣν ἐγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ἐν κλήρῳ.
When I compare your Greek to the LXX, I can see that you started with the LXX, then changed a few words. This is evident from the accents and forms, in that most of the changed words have irregularities.
What is your purpose?
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Ken M. Penner
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