Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

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Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby Mike Baber » July 28th, 2012, 11:54 pm

I'm having a little difficulty with this passage of Xenophon.

The source of the text is found below:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... %2Fs#note1

The text itself:

[...1] τῶν μὲν τοίνυν ἄλλων Ἑλλήνων οἱ φάσκοντες κάλλιστα τοὺς υἱεῖς παιδεύειν, ἐπειδὰν τάχιστα αὐτοῖς οἱ παῖδες τὰ λεγόμενα ξυνιῶσιν, εὐθὺς μὲν ἐπ᾽ αὐτοῖς παιδαγωγοὺς θεράποντας ἐφιστᾶσιν, εὐθὺς δὲ πέμπουσιν εἰς διδασκάλων μαθησομένους καὶ γράμματα καὶ μουσικὴν καὶ τὰ ἐν παλαίστρᾳ. πρὸς δὲ τούτοις τῶν παίδων πόδας μὲν ὑποδήμασιν ἁπαλύνουσι, σώματα δὲ ἱματίων μεταβολαῖς διαθρύπτουσι: σίτου γε μὴν αὐτοῖς γαστέρα μέτρον νομίζουσιν. [2] ὁ δὲ Λυκοῦργος, ἀντὶ μὲν τοῦ ἰδίᾳ ἕκαστον παιδαγωγοὺς δούλους ἐφιστάναι, ἄνδρα ἐπέστησε κρατεῖν αὐτῶν ἐξ ὧνπερ αἱ μέγισται ἀρχαὶ καθίστανται, ὃς δὴ καὶ παιδονόμος καλεῖται

My translation:

Section 1:
On one hand, in other Greek states, those who claim to rightly raise sons immediately appoint slaves [to be] pedagogos (left untranslated) over them as soon as the children understand what is spoken to them.

Section 2 is where I'm having difficulty.

What or who is ἰδίᾳ referring to?
ἕκαστον --- "each"/ "every" --- each or every what?
Is τοῦ referring to the infinitive ἐφιστάναι, thus "the appointment" or "the appointing"?
How do you translate ὧνπερ? As "their"?

Here are bits and pieces of my translation.

On the other hand, Lycurgus, instead of the appointment ??of?? slaves to be pedagogos (left untranslated) for his own ??[what]??, appointed a man to control (or "to be master of") them , ... the greatest offices..., and who is indeed called «παιδονόμος» (paidonomos).

Also, please offer your translation if you would be so kind. It would benefit me to study it (as close to the Greek as possible, with some polish of course).



Thanks.
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Re: Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby David Lim » July 29th, 2012, 7:01 am

Mike Baber wrote:Section 2 is where I'm having difficulty.

What or who is ἰδίᾳ referring to?
ἕκαστον --- "each"/ "every" --- each or every what?
Is τοῦ referring to the infinitive ἐφιστάναι, thus "the appointment" or "the appointing"?
How do you translate ὧνπερ? As "their"?

Here are bits and pieces of my translation.

On the other hand, Lycurgus, instead of the appointment ??of?? slaves to be pedagogos (left untranslated) for his own ??[what]??, appointed a man to control (or "to be master of") them , ... the greatest offices..., and who is indeed called «παιδονόμος» (paidonomos).

Also, please offer your translation if you would be so kind. It would benefit me to study it (as close to the Greek as possible, with some polish of course).


Here is what I think (I may be wrong):

"ιδια" (accusative plural neuter)
= "[their] own [children]" (one of the objects of "εφισταναι")
"εκαστον" (accusative singular masculine)
= "each [parent]" (subject of the finite verb equivalent of "εφισταναι")
"αντι μεν του ... εκαστον ... εφισταναι ..." (preposition with indirect statement)
= "indeed instead of each [parent] setting ... over ..."
"ωνπερ" ("ων" + "περ")
= "[them] of whom indeed" (where the antecedent of the relative pronoun is implicit)
"ὁ δὲ Λυκοῦργος, ἀντὶ μὲν τοῦ ἰδίᾳ ἕκαστον παιδαγωγοὺς δούλους ἐφιστάναι, ἄνδρα ἐπέστησε κρατεῖν αὐτῶν ἐξ ὧνπερ αἱ μέγισται ἀρχαὶ καθίστανται, ὃς δὴ καὶ παιδονόμος καλεῖται"
= "but Lukourgos, indeed instead of each [parent] setting [a] slave guardian over [their] own [children], set [a] man to take charge over them, out of [them] of whom indeed the greatest principalities are ordained, who indeed also is called [an] education official."
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Re: Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby Stephen Carlson » July 29th, 2012, 10:14 am

Mike Baber wrote:ὁ δὲ Λυκοῦργος, ἀντὶ μὲν τοῦ ἰδίᾳ ἕκαστον παιδαγωγοὺς δούλους ἐφιστάναι, ἄνδρα ἐπέστησε κρατεῖν αὐτῶν ἐξ ὧνπερ αἱ μέγισται ἀρχαὶ καθίστανται, ὃς δὴ καὶ παιδονόμος καλεῖται

What or who is ἰδίᾳ referring to?


I think this dative refers to something that each person (ἕκαστος) has, possibly a household (οἰκίᾳ).

Mike Baber wrote:ἕκαστον --- "each"/ "every" --- each or every what?


Each person, a head of the household subject to Lycurgus's legislation.

Mike Baber wrote:Is τοῦ referring to the infinitive ἐφιστάναι, thus "the appointment" or "the appointing"?


Yes, we have an articulated infinitive phrase that is the object of the preposition, ἀντί. I would probably render the infinitive with an English gerund without a definite article.

This phrase has three accusatives. The subject is ἕκαστον and there is a double object construction παιδαγωγοὺς δούλους.

Mike Baber wrote:How do you translate ὧνπερ? As "their"?


It's from ὅσπερ, a strengthened form of ὅς. Here, it is both the object of the preposition ἐξ and the head of its own relative clause, as if it stood for τούτων οὓς. I'd translate it has "(from among) those whom."

Mike Baber wrote:Here are bits and pieces of my translation.

On the other hand, Lycurgus, instead of the appointment ??of?? slaves to be pedagogos (left untranslated) for his own ??[what]??, appointed a man to control (or "to be master of") them , ... the greatest offices..., and who is indeed called «παιδονόμος» (paidonomos).

Also, please offer your translation if you would be so kind. It would benefit me to study it (as close to the Greek as possible, with some polish of course).


My attempt would be:

scc wrote:But, instead of each person appointing slaves as "pedagogues" for his own (household), Lycurgus appointed a man to be their master from among those whom the highest magistrates constitute, (this man) who indeed is called a παιδονόμος (paidonomos).


ETA: Marchant and Bowersock's dynamic translation of this sentence, available on Perseus, is:

Lycurgus, on the contrary, instead of leaving each father to appoint a slave to act as tutor, gave the duty of controlling the boys to a member of the class from which the highest offices are filled, in fact to the “Warden” as he is called.
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Re: Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby Stephen Carlson » July 29th, 2012, 10:21 am

David Lim wrote:"ιδια" (accusative plural neuter)


In this case, the diacritical marks are significant. ἰδίᾳ is feminine dative singular. ἴδια is neuter nom./acc. plural.
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Re: Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby Mike Baber » July 29th, 2012, 2:32 pm

Thank you, gentlemen.
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Re: Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby David Lim » July 31st, 2012, 5:27 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:"ιδια" (accusative plural neuter)


In this case, the diacritical marks are significant. ἰδίᾳ is feminine dative singular. ἴδια is neuter nom./acc. plural.


Oh okay sorry I didn't read the diacritics. Thanks for pointing that out! Anyway Xenophon would originally have written without diacritics, but I realise it should be "εφισταναι τινα τινι" so "ιδια" should be dative. And Mike, I accidentally put "[their] own"; it should be "[his] own [household]" as Stephen rendered.
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Re: Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby cwconrad » July 31st, 2012, 7:32 am

David Lim wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:"ιδια" (accusative plural neuter)


In this case, the diacritical marks are significant. ἰδίᾳ is feminine dative singular. ἴδια is neuter nom./acc. plural.


Oh okay sorry I didn't read the diacritics. Thanks for pointing that out! Anyway Xenophon would originally have written without diacritics, but I realise it should be "εφισταναι τινα τινι" so "ιδια" should be dative. And Mike, I accidentally put "[their] own"; it should be "[his] own [household]" as Stephen rendered.


I'm not sure that the force of ῖδίᾳ is clear yet. It is not the dative of indirect object with ἐφιστάναι but rather an adverbial usage of ἰδίᾳ, "in one's capacity a a private individual" as regularly used in distinction from δημοσίᾳ, "in one's capacity as a public citizen." 5th century BCE tends to value citizenship over individuality, for which reason ἰδιώτης has a negative connotation.

Cf. LSJ s.v. ἴδιος VI.2.

[2] ὁ δὲ Λυκοῦργος, ἀντὶ μὲν τοῦ ἰδίᾳ ἕκαστον παιδαγωγοὺς δούλους ἐφιστάναι, ἄνδρα ἐπέστησε κρατεῖν αὐτῶν ἐξ ὧνπερ αἱ μέγισται ἀρχαὶ καθίστανται, ὃς δὴ καὶ παιδονόμος καλεῖται
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Re: Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians, Ch. 2.1-2

Postby Stephen Carlson » July 31st, 2012, 9:31 am

Thanks for that, Carl.
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