Tischendorf 8th Edition

Other Greek writings of the New Testament era, including papyri and inscriptions
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Elam Clifford
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Joined: June 28th, 2016, 5:23 am

Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Elam Clifford » June 28th, 2016, 6:23 am

Scanning the Tischendorf 8th Edition Greek text provided via BibleHub I noted that in James, 1 John & Revelation Tischendorf regularly (and uniquely) renders "ὁ ζωή" whilst in John 1:4; 14:5; Acts 8:34 & 2 Cor 4:10,11 he renders the standard "ἡ ζωὴ"..

I've tried to research the why of this and have come up empty...except for the often repeated statements that Tischendorf aimed (with certain constraints) for the oldest MS available and limited his research to MS written between the 4th & 9th centuries and ignored later MS because of scribal tampering (tendency to correct the grammar of the NT writers)...

Could someone shed some light onto the grammar for me? I read somewhere that "ὁ ζωή" is a reference to "human life", whereas "ἡ ζωὴ" refers essentially to "animal life" or "anything living". I don't know if that is true or not, but it sounds convincing...

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 28th, 2016, 10:21 am

Welcome to B-Greek!

biblehub.com seems to have the wrong text for at least the first few examples I looked at. For instance, here is what Biblehub.com lists for 1 John 5:12 (Tischendorff):
ὁ ἔχω ὁ υἱός ἔχω ὁ ζωή ὁ μή ἔχω ὁ υἱός ὁ θεός ὁ ζωή οὐ ἔχω
That's just wrong, and it looks like something went wrong in the software, supplying the lemma instead of the verb that appears in the text. And this is not what you find in Tischendorff.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

S Walch
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by S Walch » June 28th, 2016, 12:51 pm

The issue appears to go back to 2 Corinthians 13:12 ( http://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/13-12.htm ) where several versions split the verses differently (v12 becomes v12 & v13, and v13 becomes v14).

From then, it appears the website software doesn't correct itself from Galatians 1 onwards, then only showing the lemma/root forms of the Greek words for the Tischendorf 8th Edition.

I'll email the site and let them know.

For the time being, the following website has the Tisch. 8th edition correctly: http://newchristianbiblestudy.org/bible ... schendorf/

George F Somsel
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by George F Somsel » June 29th, 2016, 2:10 am

I thought you might want to read what Tischendorff really has since you won't get it from http://www.biblehub.com

Text
12 ὁ ἔχων τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει τὴν ζωήν: ὁ μὴ ἔχων τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ τὴν ζωὴν οὐκ ἔχει.
Critical Apparatus
5:12 τον υιον pri: 8. 25. 34. 69. ascr add του θεου
εχει την ζων: 31. εχ. τον υιον
τον υιον του θεου (ita et. am* fu harl tol) … vgcle (et. am demid) Augpecc mer om του θεου. Cf et. Tertprax 31: “Nos credimus testimonium dei, quod testatus est de filio suo. Qui filium non habet, nec vitam habet.”
ουκ εχει: A ουχ εχ.
george
gfsomsel



… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.



- Jan Hus

Elam Clifford
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Joined: June 28th, 2016, 5:23 am

Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Elam Clifford » June 29th, 2016, 4:35 am

Thankyou gentlemen.

I'm inclined to agree with Johnathan that BibleHub.com has identified its Tischendorf rext incorrectly. I've contacted them for clarification... I've now downloaded the text from http://unbound.biola.edu which in its notes says "The Greek Text corresponds to the printed text found in:

Tischendorf, Constantinus, Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica major Vol. I, 1869; Vol. II 1872, Leipzig:Giesecke and Devrient. Vol 3, Prolegomena, ed. by Caspar Rene' Gregory, Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1894.

The text contains no accents or diacritical marks.

This text was prepared from the Westcott-Hort-Nestle Aland text found in the Greek text prepared by Dr. Maurice Robinson. The text was compared to the printed edition of Tischendorf's. Changes were made in the text to make it correspond to the printed edition. The text was proofed against the Tischendorf text".

So I guess that settles my initial query...It is now a matter of wait & see what biblehub.com has to say...
____________________

If it is of any interest to anyone...

Mapping of Greek Text labeled by Biblehub as Tischendorf to other Greek texts they provid

Tischendorf: ὁ ζωή
1 john 1:1 (others have "τῆς ζωῆς")
1 john 3:14 (others have "τὴν ζωὴν")

Tischendorf: ὁ ζωή ((others have "ἡ ζωὴ")
1 john 1:2
1 john 5:11

Tischendorf: ὁ θεός ὁ ζωή οὐ ἔχω (others have "τοῦ Θεοῦ τὴν ζωὴν οὐκ ἔχει")
1 john 5:12

Tischendorf: ἔχω ὁ ζωή (others have "ἔχει τὴν ζωήν")
1 john 5:12

Tischendorf: ἔχω ζωή (others have "ἔχει ζωὴν")
1 john 3:15

Tischendorf: ὅτι ζωή (others have "ὅτι ζωὴν")
1 john 5:11
1 john 5:13 (*** some others also have variant text)

Tischendorf: ὁ ζωή ὁ αἰώνιος (others have "τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον")
1 john 1:2
1 john 2:25

Tischendorf: καὶ ζωή αἰώνιος (others agree except Stephanus & Scrivener which have "καὶ ἥ ζωὴ αἶώνιος")
1 john 5:20

Alan Bunning
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Alan Bunning » June 29th, 2016, 9:27 am

Elam Clifford wrote:Thankyou gentlemen.

I'm inclined to agree with Johnathan that BibleHub.com has identified its Tischendorf rext incorrectly. I've contacted them for clarification... I've now downloaded the text from http://unbound.biola.edu which in its notes says "The Greek Text corresponds to the printed text found in:

Tischendorf, Constantinus, Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica major Vol. I, 1869; Vol. II 1872, Leipzig:Giesecke and Devrient. Vol 3, Prolegomena, ed. by Caspar Rene' Gregory, Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1894.
The text from Unbound Bible seems to contain several errors. For just one of many examples, Matthew 5:9 should not contain the word αυτοι.

Alan Bunning
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Alan Bunning » June 29th, 2016, 11:58 am

Well, it gets worse. So far, I have examined the following texts that claim to be Tischendorf’s 8th edition:

- Unbound Bible text created by Clint Yale (about 200 errors)
- Github text created by Ulrick Peterson which was based on Clint Yale’s (5-10 errors depending on how you count errors)
- MyBible module created by unknown person (only 2 errors)

This really is not surprising anymore, and if you are familiar with my work you would be aware that every text that claims to be Stephanus 1550, Westcott and Hort 1885, Scrivener 1881 (and several others) that I have examined on the Internet and in various Bible programs all contained errors. (Corrected versions of the first two texts are available on my website http://greekcntr.org but they are unaccented).

I can put out a version of Tischendorf’s 8th edition that corrects all of these errors if someone can tell me two things:

1. What word belongs in Luke 10:34 πανδοκιον or πανδοχιον? I cannot tell from the scan I have.
2. Which (if any) reading belongs at John 7:53-8:11? I don’t know Latin and I don’t know what the D and S over the readings mean. I am assuming that one of those readings belongs in double brackets.

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1025
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 29th, 2016, 2:55 pm

Elam Clifford wrote:Thankyou gentlemen.

I'm inclined to agree with Johnathan that BibleHub.com has identified its Tischendorf rext incorrectly. I've contacted them for clarification... I've now downloaded the text from http://unbound.biola.edu which in its notes says "The Greek Text corresponds to the printed text found in:

Tischendorf, Constantinus, Novum Testamentum Graece, editio octava critica major Vol. I, 1869; Vol. II 1872, Leipzig:Giesecke and Devrient. Vol 3, Prolegomena, ed. by Caspar Rene' Gregory, Leipzig: Hinrichs, 1894.

The text contains no accents or diacritical marks.

This text was prepared from the Westcott-Hort-Nestle Aland text found in the Greek text prepared by Dr. Maurice Robinson. The text was compared to the printed edition of Tischendorf's. Changes were made in the text to make it correspond to the printed edition. The text was proofed against the Tischendorf text".

So I guess that settles my initial query...It is now a matter of wait & see what biblehub.com has to say..
Elam, welcome to the B-Greek forum. Feel free to post your rather interesting biographical details in the Introductions forum. One suggestion: actually learning something about how ancient Greek works would be of great benefit to you. If you had had even a basic exposure to the syntax of the language, you would have seen for yourself that the Biblehub software was doing something wrong.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 29th, 2016, 4:50 pm

Has anyone compared the quality of these editions to Ulrik's MorphGNT version of Tischendorf?

https://github.com/morphgnt/tischendorf

I would expect this to be good quality, though old and Beta.

Alan - do you have a complete Tischendorf? Do you know if it differs from Ulrik's, and how?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Tischendorf 8th Edition

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 29th, 2016, 5:01 pm

Alan Bunning wrote:I can put out a version of Tischendorf’s 8th edition that corrects all of these errors if someone can tell me two things:

1. What word belongs in Luke 10:34 πανδοκιον or πανδοχιον? I cannot tell from the scan I have.
2. Which (if any) reading belongs at John 7:53-8:11? I don’t know Latin and I don’t know what the D and S over the readings mean. I am assuming that one of those readings belongs in double brackets.
In the scan I'm looking at, Luke 10:34 definitely looks like πανδοκιον to me. And that's what MorphGNT has, too.

For John 7:53-8:11, I don't read Latin either. But there are people here who do ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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