3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

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Peter Streitenberger
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3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Peter Streitenberger » July 25th, 2018, 4:41 pm

Dear friends of the Greek Bible,

I am in trouble, as I write a paper on 3John and stumble at the syntax of this verse:
1.4 Μειζοτέραν τούτων οὐκ ἔχω χαράν, ἵνα ἀκούω τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα ἐν ἀληθείᾳ περιπατοῦντα.
A try in German: Eine größere Freude als diese (Dinge) habe ich nicht, dass ich über meine Kindern höre, wenn sie in Wahrheit wandeln.
The same in Englisch (Darby)> I have no greater joy than these things that I hear of my children walking in the truth.
But the NKJ seems to treat it as AcP as the commentary does:
"I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth."

I found no direct example of an AcP (which would make "children" subject of the participial clause, as the NKJ does) parallel passage but a lot with an accusative of reverence (I hear regarding my children), so I would stick to Darby and exclude the AcP idea (reason: no further example). Or does anyone see a reason for an AcP ? I could not find one example, but maybe I missed something.

I looked into the Linguistic Key of the New Testament, which is all in all ok (besides some problems, not of interest for this issue), but this time I am not sure, if the Author's (Heinrich von Siebenthal) classification of an AcP for the following part ist correct: τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα ἐν ἀληθείᾳ περιπατοῦντα.
I did a BW search on it and found that ἀκούω with Accusative, when it is not a direct Object (A hears B), and this is excluded here for τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα.

So I would follow the many examples in the NT and think ἵνα ἀκούω τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα is a unit and an accusative of reference "that I heard regarding my children" (or something similar) and the next clause: a normal part. conj.: "when they walk in (the) truth". By the way: What is the difference of leaving the article out compared to other passages where it is written before the ἀληθείᾳ ? Not sure.

An additional question on V. 3: Is it the best way to print a Substitution in form of "Holding fast the truth" for Ἐχάρην γὰρ λίαν, ἐρχομένων ἀδελφῶν καὶ μαρτυρούντων σου τῇ ἀληθείᾳ, καθὼς σὺ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ περιπατεῖς, as Versions as my preferred Darby translation do: "For I rejoiced exceedingly when the brethren came and bore testimony to thy holding fast the truth, even as thou walkest in truth". That is quite a heavy treatment, I mean, "holding fast" is not a pale word, but has a distinct semantic weight. So I ask if it is the best way to do so or can the literal rendering make sense "testify your truth" - maybe ἀληθείᾳ has some meanings that makes a Substitution not necessary (maybe veracity, or truthfulness) which I have not checked.

So a lot of problems - I hope that at least some are willing to give me some hints, even if not all points could be addressed.
Thanks in advance, even tries or guesses are welcome! Yours Peter


Yours Peter
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: 3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Barry Hofstetter » July 25th, 2018, 7:09 pm

By all means, Peter, we don't want you to be in trouble. Here is one possible explanation:
Culy wrote:περιπατοῦντα. Pres act ptc neut acc pl περιπατέω. Accusative complement in an object-complement double accusative construction (see 1 John 1:10 on ψεύστην; see also 2 John 7 on ἐρχόμενον).
Culy, M. M. (2004). I, II, III John: A Handbook on the Greek Text (p. 159). Waco, TX: Baylor University Press.

On the other hand, I have always read this as simply indirect statement. There are three ways to do this in Greek: a) ὅτι followed by a nominative subject and a finite verb, b) the accusative subject and the infinitive verb, and c) the accusative subject and supplementary participle. By far the most frequent in the NT is the first, but the others are attested as well, and ἀκούω can do all three:
BDAG wrote:ⓔ w. ὅτι foll. (SIG 370, 21; PTebt 416, 8; BGU 246, 19; Josh l0:1; Da 5:14 Theod.; 1 Macc 6:55; 4 Macc 4:22; cp. the constr. ἀ. τινὰ ὅτι Od. 3, 193; X., Mem. 4, 2, 33) Mt 2:22; 4:12 al.—Pass. ἠκούσθη ὅτι ἐν οἴκῳ ἐστίν it became known that he was in the house Mk 2:1 (s. B-D-F §405, 2). οὐκ ἠκούσθη ὅτι it is unheard of that J 9:32.
ⓕ w. acc. and inf. foll. (Hom. et al.; Jos., Ant. 11, 165; 13, 292) J 12:18; 1 Cor 11:18. W. acc. and ptc. (X., Cyr. 2, 4, 12; Herodian 2, 12, 4) Ac 7:12; 3J 4.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 38). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

By accusative of reverence I think you mean accusative of reference (though I personally like being accused of reverence, if I'm going to be accused of anything), also called the accusative of respect (and in Latin grammar, the "Greek accusative"). That just doesn't strike me as very likely here. It's not the most common construction even in Classical, and doesn't really fit the syntax here.

On [τῇ] ἀληθείᾳ, Culy again:
Culy wrote:ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ. On the meaning, see verse 3. There is no apparent distinction between ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ and ἐν ἀληθείᾳ. John freely shifts from ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ in John 17:17 to ἐν ἀληθείᾳ in the analogous context of John 17:19, and many scribes (א C2 P Ψ Byz) apparently omitted the article here with no change in meaning (for a fuller discussion of the variation between articular and anarthrous forms, see Moule, 112).
Culy, M. M. (2004). I, II, III John: A Handbook on the Greek Text (p. 159). Waco, TX: Baylor University Press.

I would add that the article in general seems to be optional for abstract feminine nouns in Greek with little or no distinction meaning.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Tony Pope
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Re: 3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Tony Pope » July 26th, 2018, 7:14 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 4:41 pm

An additional question on V. 3: Is it the best way to print a Substitution in form of "Holding fast the truth" for Ἐχάρην γὰρ λίαν, ἐρχομένων ἀδελφῶν καὶ μαρτυρούντων σου τῇ ἀληθείᾳ, καθὼς σὺ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ περιπατεῖς, as Versions as my preferred Darby translation do: "For I rejoiced exceedingly when the brethren came and bore testimony to thy holding fast the truth, even as thou walkest in truth". That is quite a heavy treatment, I mean, "holding fast" is not a pale word, but has a distinct semantic weight. So I ask if it is the best way to do so or can the literal rendering make sense "testify your truth" - maybe ἀληθείᾳ has some meanings that makes a Substitution not necessary (maybe veracity, or truthfulness) which I have not checked.
It seems to me the lexicons major too much on the sense "the truth". In comparison with 3J4, LXX 4Km20.3 is cited, which strikes me as using the word in a subjective sense.
μνήσθητι δὴὅσα περιεπάτησα ἐνώπιόν σου ἐν ἀληθείᾳ καὶ καρδίᾳ πλήρει
Brenton: remember, I pray thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart
(The Hebrew original of Hezekiah's prayer is translated with the subjective word "faithfully".)

On the meanings of ἀληθεία in the johannine epistles you may find an article by Ernst Wendland interesting.

Abstract:
"In this essay the infrequently discussed phenomenon of deliberate ambiguity is explored in relation to the Johannine Eptstles. 2 John in particular. It is retermed 'semantic density' (SD) to more adequately reflect its nature and function, namely, a progressive coalescence of complementary concepts, effected by the intentional reiteration of a cluster of key terms, which are thereby merged into a more comprehensive thematic notion. SD is thus distinguished from 'ambiguity', on the one hand, and 'obscurity' on the other. Several types of discourse analysis are employed to demonstrate the likely presence of SD in 2 John, and the principle is then applied to explain two disputed 'ambiguous' expressions in verses 6 and 9 respectively, each of which pertains to the author's central message concerning the 'truth', Finally. the implications of SD for biblical exposition and translation are pointed out."

Ernst R. Wendland, 'What Is Truth? Semantic Density and the Language of the Johannine Epistles with Special Reference to 2 John' Neotestamentica 24.2 1990 301–34
http://journals.co.za/docserver/fulltex ... 75582D85FA
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Peter Streitenberger
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Re: 3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Peter Streitenberger » July 26th, 2018, 8:21 am

Dear Barry and Tony,

thank you both: Faster and more than I had hoped.

The idea of an double accusative is very intersting. The second object as constituent then realized by a participle clause. I would set this pattern, if you allow ἀκούω, when not a direct object follows (A hears B) as "A hears of B being C". In English it would be possible: I hear you laughing. How would one classify the participle "laughing" there? Is it a second object in form of a participle? No idea.

An interesting parallel (1joh 4,3) is: καὶ πᾶν πνεῦμα ὃ μὴ ὁμολογεῖ Ἰησοῦν χριστὸν ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ οὐκ ἔστιν· καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ τοῦ ἀντιχρίστου, ὃ ἀκηκόατε ὅτι ἔρχεται, καὶ νῦν ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἐστὶν ἤδη. "and every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that power of the antichrist, of which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world". A hears of B being C. Realized as you, Barry, mentioned by a clause with ὅτι. in the text of 3Joh 4, the participial clause would replace the ὅτι clause.

Tony, thank you - interesting. I try to figure out what translation follows from that. I found a entry in the LS Lexicon, that ἀληθείᾳ in regard to person points towards their being trustworthy or their loyalty (after I checked the examples). Some I found there (with my German rendering, sorry, for not presenting it in English): 1Kings 3.6 „καὶ εἶπεν Σαλωμων σὺ ἐποίησας μετὰ τοῦ δούλου σου Δαυιδ τοῦ πατρός μου ἔλεος μέγα καθὼς διῆλθεν ἐνώπιόν σου ἐν ἀληθείᾳ καὶ ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ ἐν εὐθύτητι καρδίας μετὰ σοῦ“. „Und Salomon sagte: Du hast mit deinem Diener David, meinem Vater, großes Erbarmen gehabt, weil er vor dir in Wahrhaftigkeit und in Gerechtigkeit und in Rechtschaffenheit des Herzens dir gegenüber gewandelt ist“. Micha 7.20 „δώσεις ἀλήθειαν τῷ Ιακωβ“ „Du wirst Jakob Treue erweisen“. Cf. Aeschylus, Agamemnon 1550: „τίς δ’ ἐπιτύμβιον αἶνον ἐπ’ ἀνδρὶ θείωι σὺν δακρύοις ἰάπτων ἀληθείαι φρενῶν πονήσει; „Und wer, hält zu Tränen gerührt eine lobende Trauerrede über den göttlichen Mann mit Wahrhaftigkeit der Sinne?“ Cf. Plato, Respublica 1.331,C „τοῦτο δ’ αὐτό, τὴν δικαιοσύνην, πότερα τὴν ἀλήθειαν αὐτὸ φήσομεν εἶναι πλῶς οὕτως”. “Eben dieses aber, die Gerechtigkeit, sollen wir sie eher als die Wahrhaftigkeit bezeichnen, da es so einfacher ist?”.

So I would say a substitution of "holding fast" is nice but not necessary if one accepts the entry of LS, namely that ἀληθείᾳ in regard to persons means something like trustworthy (the English noun is not coming into my mind, but truthfulness would make it, I think, in case trustworthyness does not exist in English - if not: take it now :-). Greetings! P.
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Wes Wood
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Re: 3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Wes Wood » July 26th, 2018, 9:50 am

2Th. 3:11 Ἀκούομεν γάρ τινας περιπατοῦντας ἐν ὑμῖν ἀτάκτως μηδὲν ἐργαζομένους ἀλλὰ περιεργαζομένους· This verse seems to me to be a close parallel, if it helps.
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: 3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » July 26th, 2018, 2:15 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 4:41 pm
I am in trouble, as I write a paper on 3John and stumble at the syntax of this verse:
1.4 Μειζοτέραν τούτων οὐκ ἔχω χαράν, ἵνα ἀκούω τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα ἐν ἀληθείᾳ περιπατοῦντα.
{snip}
I found no direct example of an AcP (which would make "children" subject of the participial clause, as the NKJ does) parallel passage but a lot with an accusative of reverence (I hear regarding my children), so I would stick to Darby and exclude the AcP idea (reason: no further example). Or does anyone see a reason for an AcP ? I could not find one example, but maybe I missed something.
What is an AcP?

Your difficulties stem in part from antiquated exegetical methodology. All this fussing about questions concerning the correct grammatical terminology is unnecessary. It actually gets in the way of understanding the text. ἀκούω here takes two arguments: John heard something about someone. The use of ἵνα here is explained by Margaret Sim in her dissertation.

A Relevance Theoretic approach
to the particle ἵνα in Koine Greek

Margaret Gavin Sim 2006.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: 3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 27th, 2018, 1:56 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
July 26th, 2018, 2:15 pm
The use of ἵνα here is explained by Margaret Sim in her dissertation.

A Relevance Theoretic approach
to the particle ἵνα in Koine Greek

Margaret Gavin Sim 2006.
Which you can find here:

A Relevance Theoretic approach
to the particle ἵνα in Koine Greek


Stirling, what part of this should we focus on? I'm looking for something about ἵνα with verbs of perception - or her category of verbs of saying, thinking and knowing.
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Re: 3Joh 4: AcP or Accusative of Reference - and another minor question on that verse.

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 27th, 2018, 2:22 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
July 25th, 2018, 7:09 pm
On the other hand, I have always read this as simply indirect statement. There are three ways to do this in Greek: a) ὅτι followed by a nominative subject and a finite verb, b) the accusative subject and the infinitive verb, and c) the accusative subject and supplementary participle. By far the most frequent in the NT is the first, but the others are attested as well, and ἀκούω can do all three:
BDAG wrote:ⓔ w. ὅτι foll. (SIG 370, 21; PTebt 416, 8; BGU 246, 19; Josh l0:1; Da 5:14 Theod.; 1 Macc 6:55; 4 Macc 4:22; cp. the constr. ἀ. τινὰ ὅτι Od. 3, 193; X., Mem. 4, 2, 33) Mt 2:22; 4:12 al.—Pass. ἠκούσθη ὅτι ἐν οἴκῳ ἐστίν it became known that he was in the house Mk 2:1 (s. B-D-F §405, 2). οὐκ ἠκούσθη ὅτι it is unheard of that J 9:32.
ⓕ w. acc. and inf. foll. (Hom. et al.; Jos., Ant. 11, 165; 13, 292) J 12:18; 1 Cor 11:18. W. acc. and ptc. (X., Cyr. 2, 4, 12; Herodian 2, 12, 4) Ac 7:12; 3J 4.
This does seem like the simplest explanation.
ἵνα
v ἀκούω
o
s τὰ ἐμὰ τέκνα
+ ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ
v περιπατοῦντα
The object says what he hears. What he hears is a clause with its own subject and verb.
A try in German: Eine größere Freude als diese (Dinge) habe ich nicht, dass ich über meine Kindern höre, wenn sie in Wahrheit wandeln.
Perhaps: "dass ich höre, dass meine Kindern in der Wahrheit wandeln"? "that I hear that my children walk in the truth"?
Schlachter 2000 puts it this way: "zu hören, dass meine Kinder in der Wahrheit wandeln."
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http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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