Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

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Lysias 24 - §23 - Text and Hints

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 7th, 2014, 1:49 pm

Lysias 24.23 wrote:πῶς οὖν οὐκ ἂν δειλαιότατος1 εἴην, εἰ τῶν μὲν καλλίστων καὶ μεγίστων διὰ τὴν συμφορὰν ἀπεστερημένος εἴην, ἃ δ᾽ ἡ πόλις ἔδωκε προνοηθεῖσα τῶν οὕτως διακειμένων, διὰ τὸν κατήγορον ἀφαιρεθείην; μηδαμῶς, ὦ βουλή, ταύτῃ θῆσθε τὴν ψῆφον. διὰ τί γὰρ ἂν καὶ τύχοιμι τοιούτων ὑμῶν;

1 δειλαιότατος Markland: δικαιότατος MSS.
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Hints for §23: (I'm sure you're getting better at this, but these few things may be hurdles that you could be helped over.)
  • δειλαιότατος - "most wretched". I prefer δικαιότατος "most justified" (yo this pension).
  • ἀπεστερημένος - in a state of being deprived + gen. of the thing of which one is deprived.
  • προνοηθεῖσα - provided for, cf. 1 Timothy 5:8 Εἰ δέ τις τῶν ἰδίων καὶ μάλιστα τῶν οἰκείων οὐ προνοεῖ, τὴν πίστιν ἤρνηται, καὶ ἔστιν ἀπίστου χείρων. .
  • τῶν οὕτως διακειμένων - this is a genitive absolute, and while syntactically aloof from the sentence, it does imply an ὑμῖν with the verb "to give"
  • μηδαμῶς - "certainly not", cf. Acts 10:14 (&~11:8) Ὁ δὲ Πέτρος εἶπεν, Μηδαμῶς, κύριε· ὅτι οὐδέποτε ἔφαγον πᾶν κοινὸν ἢ ἀκάθαρτον.
  • ἂν ... τύχοιμι τοιούτων ὑμῶν - optative. "Why would I find you being such?", but the "I" is not so strong as it seems in English.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
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Lysias 24 - §24 - Text and notes

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 7th, 2014, 2:07 pm

I'm sorry to be rushing this along and giving you hints on the fly, so-to-speak, but I need to get through this at a pace. Take your time in working through it though.

Lysias 24.24 wrote:πότερον ὅτι δι᾽ ἐμέ τις εἰς ἀγῶνα πώποτε καταστὰς ἀπώλεσε τὴν οὐσίαν; ἀλλ᾽ οὐδ᾽ ἂν εἷς ἀποδείξειεν. ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι πολυπράγμων εἰμὶ καὶ θρασὺς καὶ φιλαπεχθήμων;
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Hints for §24: (This is straightforward, but perhaps some words are unfamiliar)
  • πότερον; - "whether of the two?" = Tell me if this is true or not...? (i.e. the two alternatives are this or nothing).
  • καταστὰς - Being in a (certain) state.
  • ἀποδείξειεν - prove (in court). cf Acts 25:7 Παραγενομένου δὲ αὐτοῦ, περιέστησαν οἱ ἀπὸ Ἱεροσολύμων καταβεβηκότες Ἰουδαῖοι, πολλὰ καὶ βαρέα αἰτιώματα (charges) φέροντες κατὰ τοῦ Παύλου, ἃ οὐκ ἴσχυον ἀποδεῖξαι (prove),
  • πολυπράγμων - (in a bad sense) meddlesome, officious, a busybody
  • θρασὺς - (in a bad sense) rash
  • φιλαπεχθήμων - be fond of people hating you (me)
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Lysias 24 - §25 - Text and hints

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 9th, 2014, 2:42 am

Section 25 sees us into the last furlong. The structure continues from Section 24.

Lysias 24.25 wrote:ἀλλ᾽ οὐ τοιαύταις ἀφορμαῖς τοῦ βίου πρὸς τὰ τοιαῦτα τυγχάνω χρώμενος. ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι λίαν ὑβριστὴς καὶ βίαιος; ἀλλ᾽ οὐδ᾽ ἂν αὐτὸς φήσειεν, εἰ μὴ βούλοιτο καὶ τοῦτο ψεύδεσθαι τοῖς ἄλλοις ὁμοίως. ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι ἐπὶ τῶν τριάκοντα γενόμενος ἐν δυνάμει κακῶς ἐποίησα πολλοὺς τῶν πολιτῶν; ἀλλὰ μετὰ τοῦ ὑμετέρου πλήθους ἔφυγον εἰς Χαλκίδα τὴν ἐπ᾽ Εὐρίπῳ,1 καὶ ἐξόν μοι μετ᾽ ἐκείνων ἀδεῶς πολιτεύεσθαι, μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν εἱλόμην κινδυνεύειν ἀπελθών.2

1 τὴν ἐπ᾽ Εὐρίπῳ del. Frohberger.

2 ἀπελθών Baeker: ἁπάντων MSS.
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Hints for §25: (Here are a few things that I guess might be useful for me to mention to help you get the most out of this reading.)
  • οὐ ... χρώμενος - the extent of the verbal phrase.
  • τυγχάνω - the primary decision here is whether τυγχάνω just goes with πρὸς τὰ τοιαῦτα or is goes with οὐ ... τυγχάνω χρώμενος.
  • ἀφορμαῖς - means with which one begins a thing, resources. The translation "occasion" in the New Testament is quite ambiguous to the point of misleading. e.g. Βούλομαι οὖν νεωτέρας γαμεῖν, τεκνογονεῖν, οἰκοδεσποτεῖν, μηδεμίαν ἀφορμὴν διδόναι τῷ ἀντικειμένῳ λοιδορίας χάριν. "give no occasion to the adversary for slandering", where it sounds like the time should be full enough to exclude something bad. It seems to mean, don't let a little bit of something foreign (of a different nature) in, which would be the start of something (growing) bigger (consistent with the second).
  • τοῖς ἄλλοις - sc. ψεῦδος
  • ἐπὶ (+gen.) - "at the time of", cf. Matthew 1:11 ἐπὶ τῆς μετοικεσίας Βαβυλῶνος
  • γενόμενος - nominative singular masculine first person (singular) aorist indicative middle participle.
  • πλήθους - neuter.
  • ἀδεῶς - δε- "to bind" -> "as free persons"
  • εἱλόμην - suppletive.
Stephen Hughes
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Lysias 24 - §26 - Text and hints

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 9th, 2014, 2:56 am

I don't think yu will have many issues here, perhaps just seeing the extent of verbal phrases, which tend to be longer than you will have been used to in the New Testament.

Lysias 24.26 wrote:μὴ τοίνυν, ὦ βουλή, μηδὲν ἡμαρτηκὼς ὁμοίων1 ὑμῶν τύχοιμι τοῖς πολλὰ ἠδικηκόσιν, ἀλλὰ τὴν αὐτὴν ψῆφον θέσθε περὶ ἐμοῦ ταῖς ἄλλαις βουλαῖς, ἀναμνησθέντες ὅτι οὔτε χρήματα διαχειρίσας τῆς πόλεως δίδωμι λόγον αὐτῶν, οὔτε ἀρχὴν ἄρξας οὐδεμίαν εὐθύνας ὑπέχω νῦν αὐτῆς, ἀλλὰ περὶ ὀβολοῦ μόνον ποιοῦμαι τοὺς λόγους.

1 ὁμοίων Contius: ὁμοίως MSS.
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Hints for §26: (Perhaps you will need these hints.)
  • μὴ ... τύχοιμι - the extent of the verbal phrase
  • ἡμαρτηκὼς & ἠδικηκόσιν - Perfect participles.
  • ἄλλαις - i.e. previous (years') ones
  • διαχειρίσας - genitive.
  • οὔτε ... δίδωμι - extent of the verbal phrase.
  • οὔτε ... ὑπέχω - extent of the verbal phrase.
  • ποιοῦμαι - have you brought out the element of self-interest expressed by this form?
  • μόνον - μόνον is not μόνου with ὀβολοῦ. It is adverbial because περὶ ὀβολοῦ is an adverbial prepositional phrase.
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
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Lysias 24 - §27 - Texts and hints

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 9th, 2014, 3:25 am

This is the final section of this speech. I've presented the last few in rapid succession to get this part of the endeavour finished, and be ready to move on with something else before tomorrow's full moon. Take your time with reading and understanding it as you have time.

Here the speaker is making straightforward points in understandable language.

Lysias 24.27 wrote:καὶ οὕτως ὑμεῖς μὲν τὰ δίκαια γνώσεσθε πάντες, ἐγὼ δὲ τούτων ὑμῖν τυχὼν ἕξω τὴν χάριν, οὗτος δὲ τοῦ λοιποῦ μαθήσεται μὴ τοῖς ἀσθενεστέροις ἐπιβουλεύειν ἀλλὰ τῶν ὁμοίων αὐτῷ περιγίγνεσθαι.
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Hints for §27: (Here are few things to add to your experience of reading.)
  • γνώσεσθε - form a judgement. This is not future for imperative.
  • τοῦ λοιποῦ - genitive expressing time - "as time goes on in the future".
  • ἐπιβουλεύειν - Plot against. cf Acts 20:19 δουλεύων τῷ κυρίῳ μετὰ πάσης ταπεινοφροσύνης καὶ πολλῶν δακρύων καὶ πειρασμῶν τῶν συμβάντων μοι ἐν ταῖς ἐπιβουλαῖς τῶν Ἰουδαίων·"the plots", but in those cases in Acts, their aim seems to have been to GAME OVER Paul's life, rather than to just ruin it in some small way through the courts.
  • περιγίγνεσθαι - sort of equals "improve himself"
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
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Lysias 24

Postby Wes Wood » August 15th, 2014, 11:04 pm

I am momentarily back from the dead. I am uncertain about a few things, but I think they are fairly obvious.

"And do not, because of this man, prevent me from taking the only one of the things that fortune gave me in my homeland: and do not let this one of you persuade you to take back what long ago you all gave to me in common(?). For after, O Council, the greatest of things was taken away from us by the gods, the city voted to us this silver/stipend thinking common fortunes exist to all (?), both to the bad and to the good."
"We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves."
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Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Postby Wes Wood » August 16th, 2014, 10:47 am

"And do not, because of this man, prevent me from taking the only thing hat fortune gave me instead of those in my homeland: and do not let this one man persuade you to take back what long ago you all unanimously gave to me. For after, O Council, the greatest of things was taken away from us by the fates, the city voted to us this silver/stipend thinking common fortunes exist to all (? Still have no idea here.), both to the bad and to the good."

For good or ill, here are some adjustments. I am without my crutch- I mean, my resources.
"We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves."
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Lysias 23

Postby Wes Wood » August 16th, 2014, 12:49 pm

Sorry for messing up the previous number.

"How then will I ever escape being the most wretched man [1], if I am robbed of the greatest and most beautiful things? Will the things the city has given to take care of [2] the ones who are in such a state as this be taken away because of the plaintiff? O Council, let none of you place a stone [3] for this [4]. For why should I receive [a lot] [5] like this from you?"

1- More woodenly, "How will I ever not be most wretched?" I can see why most would think this version makes better sense than "most justified," but shouldn't the "most difficult" version always be preferred? :lol: Of course, I am jesting. Not that it means anything, but I like the variant better as well.

2- Is there a better way to treat this than the English infinitive?

3- or "cast a vote"

4- This "outcome" or "to this plaintiff?" I favor the former.

5- This is what I would have said without the hint, but I would not have believed it to be a literal translation.
"We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves."
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Lysias 24

Postby Wes Wood » August 16th, 2014, 1:48 pm

This hasn't been too bad, but I'm not sure how some of the conjunctions are functioning.

"When has anyone of the assembly ever lost your possessions because of me, who is in such a state? But neither could anyone prove it. But neither could anyone prove it. But because I am a busybody, rash, and love to make enemies [1]?

1- If we are guilty of a fallacy, can we be blamed?
"We cannot teach people anything; we can only help them discover it within themselves."
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Lysias 24 - §23 - Feedback for Wes Wood

Postby Stephen Hughes » August 17th, 2014, 1:34 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Lysias 24.23 wrote:πῶς οὖν οὐκ ἂν δειλαιότατος1 εἴην, εἰ τῶν μὲν καλλίστων καὶ μεγίστων διὰ τὴν συμφορὰν ἀπεστερημένος εἴην, ἃ δ᾽ ἡ πόλις ἔδωκε προνοηθεῖσα τῶν οὕτως διακειμένων, διὰ τὸν κατήγορον ἀφαιρεθείην; μηδαμῶς, ὦ βουλή, ταύτῃ θῆσθε τὴν ψῆφον. διὰ τί γὰρ ἂν καὶ τύχοιμι τοιούτων ὑμῶν;

Wes Wood - Section 23 wrote:"How then will I ever escape being the most wretched man [1], if firstly / not only (μὲν) I am robbed deprived [διὰ τὴν συμφορὰν missing!] because of the misfortune (to keep a language parallel with your "because of the plaintiff" - διὰ τὸν κατήγορον) of the greatest and most beautiful things? Will the things the city has given to take care of [2] the ones who are in such a state as this be taken away because of the plaintiff? O Council, let none of you place a stone pebble[3] for this [4]. For why should I receive [a lot] [5] like this from you? (See the note below)"


Wes Wood - Section 23 (Footnotes) wrote:2- Is there a better way to treat this than the English infinitive?

Perhaps. I used to think I was beginning to understand grammar in its rigidity, but now I think it is like I'm trying to draw constellations on the night sky. Jesus' Δός μοι πιεῖν in John 4:7&9 is translated more substantively than perhaps the Greek is in actuality. You could could sort of bend grammatical boundaries like that if you didn't want to be "literal" (whatever that means).

Wes Wood - Section 23 (Footnotes) wrote:3- or "cast a vote"

How big do you imagine the "stone" is? A ψῆφος is much smaller than a λίθος, so perhaps "pebble" would be better.

Wes Wood - Section 23 (Footnotes) wrote:4- This "outcome" or "to this plaintiff?" I favor the former.
Unless he had sex reassignment surgery in the space of a few phrases, the second option is null (ταύτῃ is feminine).

Wes Wood - Section 23 (Footnotes) wrote:5- This is what I would have said without the hint, but I would not have believed it to be a literal translation.
διὰ τί γὰρ ἂν καὶ τύχοιμι τοιούτων ὑμῶν; "For why should I receive [a lot] like this from you?"
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἂν ... τύχοιμι τοιούτων ὑμῶν - optative. "Why would I find you being such?", but the "I" is not so strong as it seems in English.

Could you explain what you've done here, please? I can't imagine it. To hit it with a blunt end of the stick, it's something like, "What have I ever done to pip any of you off?"
Stephen Hughes
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself."
(Attributed to Albert Einstein)
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