Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

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Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

First feedback - Lysias §12 Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Lysias 24, 12 wrote:καίτοι πῶς οὐκ ἄτοπόν ἐστιν, ὦ βουλή, τοῦτον ἄν,1 εἰ μὲν ἐπ᾽ ἀστράβης ὀχούμενον ἑώρα με, σιωπᾶν (τί γὰρ ἂν καὶ ἔλεγεν;), ὅτι δ᾽ ἐπὶ τοὺς ᾐτημένους ἵππους ἀναβαίνω, πειρᾶσθαι πείθειν ὑμᾶς ὡς δυνατός εἰμι2; καὶ ὅτι μὲν δυοῖν βακτηρίαιν χρῶμαι, τῶν ἄλλων μιᾷ χρωμένων, μὴ κατηγορεῖν ὡς καὶ τοῦτο τῶν δυναμένων ἐστιν: ὅτι δ᾽ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἵππους ἀναβαίνω, τεκμηρίῳ χρῆσθαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς ὡς εἰμὶ τῶν δυναμένων; οἷς ἐγώ διὰ τὴν αὐτὴν αἰτίαν ἀμφοτέροις χρῶμαι.
Wes Wood, (Lysias 24, 12) wrote:And indeed thus is it not out of place, O Council, if indeed this [man] keeps silent seeing me sitting on a mule’s saddle? (For what else was he saying?) But because I ride horses by begging, he is trying to persuade you that I am well; and because indeed I need two walking sticks, when others need one, but this is not taken as a sign of one who is healthy, is it?: but because I ride on horses, do I give you a sure sign that I am one who is well? But I need either of them because of the same cause.
This is like a pre-fabricated house after it has been lifted off the semi-trailer, before it has been fastened together.

Look at these points and then decide if you would like to re-work Section 12
  • There is one question extending from καίτοι to δυνατός εἰμι; You need to work the two parts together.
  • ἄτοπόν is stronger more like "wrong", than "odd" as the etymologised "out of place" might suggest.
  • ᾐτημένους - begged for, requested (from others). "which people only be-grudgingly let me ride". It is less than a gift.
  • ὅτι could perhaps be taken as "that because" if you are having trouble joining things up at that point.
  • κατηγορεῖν ὡς - to make the accusation that, to use ... (what comes after the ὡς) during the process of making an accusation.
  • τεκμηρίῳ χρῆσθαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς ὡς εἰμὶ τῶν δυναμένων; The εἰμὶ is after the conjunctive ὡς so it is probably not the same person that χρῆσθαι refers to. If it's "Wow, that's just like English" time, then chances are there is a fudge (unscholarly simplification that happens to seem correct) or it is wrong. If you feel yourself suddenly going from highly logical analytic construction straight to a heart-felt ease, it is time to wonder if it was "too" easy.
  • ἀμφοτέροις - means both, is that how you understand it?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Lysias 12 Feedback

Post by Wes Wood »

I have been dreading and anticipating this all day. Your analogy made it sound better than how it actually seemed to me while doing it. I would've compared it to a pre-fab house pre-assembly post-tornado. I will probably look at the hints tonight and rework the text tomorrow after I have had a chance to "forget" what I did earlier.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 693
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Lysias §12 Feedback Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood »

"And is it not wrong, Councilmen, for him to keep silent if he was seeing me ride on a mule (For what else was he saying?), but [now] that I ride on other people’s horses he is trying to persuade you that I am healthy? And he does not accuse me of being healthy because I use two walking sticks, when others need only one, but he presents to you the fact that I ride on horses as a sure sign that I am healthy? But I need both of for the same reason."

I tried to smooth this out a bit. I hope it will expose any further misconceptions I may have. I did understand the last "either" in my translation as meaning "both." There were several things I missed in my final review before I submitted my initial post. One last thing, if you don't mind. Is the phrase in parentheses correct? I often struggle with questions in Greek.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

§12 τί γὰρ ἂν καὶ ἔλεγεν; Wes Wood Feedback

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:
Lysias 24, 12 wrote:(τί γὰρ ἂν καὶ ἔλεγεν;)
Wes Wood wrote:"(For what else was he saying?)"
One last thing, if you don't mind. Is the phrase in parentheses correct? I often struggle with questions in Greek.
At a first glance it seems your problem is with ἂν, but actually, I think it is with καὶ.
Matthew 11:21 wrote:Οὐαί σοι, Χοραζίν, οὐαί σοι, Βηθσαϊδά, ὅτι εἰ ἐν Τύρῳ καὶ Σιδῶνι ἐγένοντο αἱ δυνάμεις αἱ γενόμεναι ἐν ὑμῖν, πάλαι ἂν ἐν σάκκῳ καὶ σποδῷ μετενόησαν.
They would have very early on in the piece repented (dressing) in heshen and (darkening their faces) with soot.
It is a hypothetical past tense. And translating without the καὶ it would "What would he have been saying", not "was", as you have it.

As for the καὶ in this... The phrase "what else" that appears in your translation feels wrong. You have crossed up your word-classes to get this translation. You are using καὶ (adverbial) as an adjective "else". I know that "something else" is ἄλλο τι in
Acts 19:32 wrote:Ἄλλοι μὲν οὖν ἄλλο τι ἔκραζον· ἦν γὰρ ἡ ἐκκλησία συγκεχυμένη, καὶ οἱ πλείους οὐκ ᾔδεισαν τίνος ἕνεκεν συνεληλύθεισαν.
Acts 21:34 wrote:Ἄλλοι δὲ ἄλλο τι ἐβόων ἐν τῷ ὄχλῳ· μὴ δυνάμενος δὲ γνῶναι τὸ ἀσφαλὲς διὰ τὸν θόρυβον, ἐκέλευσεν ἄγεσθαι αὐτὸν εἰς τὴν παρεμβολήν.
I honestly don't know how to express the question "What else?" in Classical / Koine Greek, so I have no way to check your rendering of sense here. Many people have the feeling that they could never compose, but composing (together with years of active extensive / detailed reading) is a way that we can check ourselves in translation (hold ourselves back from too much optimistic creativity). τί ἄλλο; would be my creatively optimistic guess, but it seems too much like Modern Greek (κάτι άλλο something else, τι άλλο; what else?) for me to not suspect cross-linguistic interference.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

ἀλλοτρίους vs. ᾐτημένους

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Lysias 24,11 wrote:ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοτρίους ἵππους ἀνέβαινον
Wes Wood - Lysias 24,11 (Initial translation) wrote:I ride on other people’s horses
Lysias 24,12 wrote:ἐπὶ τοὺς ᾐτημένους ἵππους ἀναβαίνω
Wes Wood - Lysias 24,12 (First attempt) wrote:I ride horses by begging
Wes Wood - Lysias 24,12 (Second attempt) wrote:I ride on other people’s horses
What do you understand the difference between ᾐτημένους and ἀλλοτρίους to be?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 693
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Wes Wood »

I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but it is most likely because of my ignorance. My understanding of the phrase is that by begging/repeatedly asking the owners of the horses he is given permission to ride them.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Feedback - Lysias §13 Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:I feel this is my worst one yet. Self grade D-. I have the feeling I will be spending some time here.
Lysias 24,13 wrote:τοσοῦτον δὲ διενήνοχεν ἀναισχυντίᾳ τῶν ἁπάντων ἀνθρώπων, ὥστε ὑμᾶς πειρᾶται πείθειν, τοσούτους ὄντας εἵς ὤν, ὡς οὐκ εἰμὶ τῶν ἀδυνάτων ἐγώ. καίτοι εἰ τοῦτο πείσει τινὰς ὑμῶν, ὦ βουλή, τί με κωλύει κληροῦσθαι τῶν ἐννέα ἀρχόντων, καὶ ὑμᾶς ἐμοῦ μὲν ἀφελέσθαι τὸν ὀβολὸν ὡς ὑγιαίνοντος, τούτῳ δὲ ψηφίσασθαι πάντας ὡς ἀναπήρῳ; οὐ γὰρ δήπου τὸν αὐτὸν ὑμεῖς μὲν ὡς δυνάμενον ἀφαιρήσεσθε τὸ διδόμενον, οἱ δὲ θεσμοθέται ὡς ἀδύνατον ὄντα κληροῦσθαι κωλύσουσιν.
Wes Wood wrote:"But as much as this man excels in impudence above all men, in this manner he tries to persuade you, being one of you, as though I am not one who is disabled. And indeed if this [man] will persuade some of you, O Council, what prevents me from casting lots [to become?] of the nine [/dumb?] rulers, and indeed what prevents you taking away from me the obol as [you do to] ones who are healthy, but to (vote to give?) this maimed man all [of the obol?]? For perhaps you will not take away the same thing [obol?] you indeed gave as to one who is healthy but the legislators prevent from casting lots because he is disabled."
ὑμᾶς πειρᾶται ... τοσούτους ὄντας εἵς ὤν - being one of you - he tries ...you ... being of such a great number, while him being just one
κληροῦσθαι - receive by lot (the getting not the casting is more important here)
[/dumb?] - read the historical notes below
τί ... κωλύει ... , καὶ ὑμᾶς ἐμοῦ μὲν ἀφελέσθαι τὸν ὀβολὸν ὡς ὑγιαίνοντος, τούτῳ δὲ ψηφίσασθαι πάντας ὡς ἀναπήρῳ; - and indeed what prevents you taking away from me the obol as [you do to] ones who are healthy, but to (vote to give?) this maimed man all [of the obol?]? - τί ... κωλύει is used 3 times, take ὡς as "as if I were", the πάντας is the subject of the infinitive "the whole council" "the council to a man", τούτῳ ... ὡς ἀναπήρῳ to this guy (the plaintiff) as if he were maimed.
οὐ γὰρ δήπου τὸν αὐτὸν ὑμεῖς μὲν ὡς δυνάμενον ἀφαιρήσεσθε τὸ διδόμενον, οἱ δὲ θεσμοθέται ὡς ἀδύνατον ὄντα κληροῦσθαι κωλύσουσιν. - For perhaps you will not take away the same thing [obol?] you indeed gave as to one who is healthy but the legislators prevent from casting lots because he is disabled. τὸν αὐτὸν ... ὡς δυνάμενον this is a phrase in the accusative, ἀφαιρήσεσθε is middle/passive and constructed with two accusatives, κληροῦσθαι receiving by lot. I haven't read about it elsewhere, but it seems that on the face of it someone eligible for public office was not eligible for the dole and the other way around too.

There is a lot here that you can't just understand from the text and our general knowledge of modern social security support for the disabled persons, and the stereotypical feelings of others towards that support, including the institutionalised scepticism that entitlement review boards represent. This section and the next (§14) make reference to Athenian legal and political structures which are different from our own and the Jewish and Roman ones that we are accustomed to in the New Testament.

The Nine Archons of Athens is something that you can read about off board. The Development of Athenian Democracy is a really broad subject, and in Sydney University at least, we received a knowledge of Ancient Greek history, myth and society that was adequate for understanding the texts. It was far more than language in isolation and always more than what could be derived from the text itself.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but it is most likely because of my ignorance. My understanding of the phrase is that by begging/repeatedly asking the owners of the horses he is given permission to ride them.
There are two phrases to describe the horses
ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοτρίους ἵππους (Lysias 24.11) and ἐπὶ τοὺς ᾐτημένους ἵππους (Lysias 24. 12). What is the difference between these two phrases?

What I am suggesting that you do is to list and compare parts of the meaning of an adjective, eg. ἀσχήμων - misshapen, ugly; unseemly, shameful (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:23) vs. εὐσχήμων - elegant, graceful; decent, becoming (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:24 and other places). In this case there would be two different comparisons, first in respect of their form per se, and the second in respect of the way that their form is perceived.

You could ask yourself things like, "Who owns the horses?", "Does ownership change?", "What is implied about the owner's social status?", basically anything so that you end up with a meaning that you then have to find a word for to express it in English. In this case you seem to be looking for a word directly.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

§14 - Lysias 24.14 Text and hints

Post by Stephen Hughes »

We have been reading this text together for a month now at the average rate of one section every two days. This Section 14 is a good point to take a break for reflection on what we have done together (As would Section 20). Let's take 2 weeks off after we finish the feedbacks for this section. I'll give more specific instructions / suggestions tomorrow or the next day when we reach the end of this.

Section 14 uses quiet straightforward, but the legal concept of a family member marrying an heiress will probably be unfamiliar.

Now they discuss what make of car is suitable for a state welfare recipient to drive.
Lysias, 24, 14 wrote:ἀλλὰ γὰρ οὔτε ὑμεῖς τούτῳ τὴν αὐτὴν ἔχετε γνώμην, οὔθ᾽ οὗτος εὖ ποιῶν. ὁ μὲν γὰρ ὥσπερ ἐπικλήρου τῆς συμφορᾶς οὔσης ἀμφισβητήσων ἥκει καὶ πειρᾶται πείθειν ὑμᾶς ὡς οὐκ εἰμὶ τοιοῦτος οἷον ὑμεῖς ὁρᾶτε πάντες: ὑμεῖς δὲ (ὃ τῶν εὖ φρονούντων ἔργον ἐστί) μᾶλλον πιστεύετε τοῖς ὑμετέροις αὐτῶν ὀφθαλμοῖς ἢ τοῖς τούτου λόγοις.
Hints for §14: (Here are a few things that you might not be familiar with.)
  • ἀμφισβητεῖν - dispute; (+gen.) Att. law-term, lay claim to property of deceased or guardianship of heiress. [As if he would get something for himself under these most terrible circumstances of my misfortune].
  • ἐπίκληρος ἡ - heiress
  • τοιοῦτος οἷον - the sort of guy, whom
  • ὑμετέροις αὐτῶν - reflexive.
  • μᾶλλον ... ἢ - sentence pattern
[/size]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 693
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Wes Wood »

"For another you neither have the same judgment as this man nor {[is] this man doing well}. For indeed just as one who is laying claim to a woman who is an epikleros of misfortune he is present and tries to persuade you that I am not not like what you all see. But would you (it is the work of sound minds) rather believe your own eyes or this man’s words."

The part in {brackets} is the only part I am certain I got wrong. I will attempt to explain my thoughts. I get the sense that the verb ἔχετε is being elided. That would make the initial part of the phrase read something like, "nor does this man have." However, this troubles me because I understand εὖ to function mainly, though not exclusively, as an adverb. Though, this is my best guess for that word at the moment, I don't understand how ποιῶν is functioning at all. Looking at LSJ made the situation worse. :oops: I think if I understood what is going on with ποιῶν is could get the rest.

I tried to convey my understanding of epikleros as much as the greek itself. This is my second area of concern. Other than these points, I feel pretty confident.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
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