"Unseen" Attic Oratory

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Jordan Day
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Re: "Unseen" Attic Oratory

Post by Jordan Day » June 2nd, 2014, 10:21 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:A few Questions
1. Why are these two words in the accusative? ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε, and this phrase in the infinitive? μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
2. If it were not in indirect speech after κελεύειν, what mood would ποιήσοντα be? Future indicative, future subjunctive or future participle (what case)?
3. What mood would this be? ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε
4. What mood would this be? μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
5. Why is the ὡς here?
1) I honestly don't know; the infinitive here, as you said, is being used to express purpose.
2) future indicative "ὁ Φίλιππος ποιήσει πάντα ὑμεῖς ψηφίσεσθε" :?:
3) indicative "ψηφίσεσθε"
4) I would assume the subjunctive..."ἵνα μὴ προσέχητε τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις"
5) Not sure...am I allowed to use LSJ? Im sure there is some classical usage I am unfamiliar with. As you said, Vince gets "on the understanding that" because he takes it adverbally (πῶς;...ὠς...)
Stephen wrote:Perhaps, but does that Greek reflect your English "as you will vote on whatever Phillip will do"? It seems a little different.
Yes, i suppose it does.
Stephen wrote:Try this on for size,
Narrative - Φιλίπου δὲ ἀγοράσοντος ἅπαντα ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς πωλήσητε, οἱ πρεσβευταὶ ἔπλευσαν πρὸς Μακεδονίαν. (Philip is extra to the narrative)
If he is involved as here, then perhaps - οἱ πρεσβευταὶ πλεύσαντες πρὸς Μακεδονίαν εἰς λόγους Φιλίπῳ ἀφίκοντο ἀγοράσοντι ἅπαντα ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς πωλήσωσιν. [εἰς λόγους Φιλίπῳ ἀφίκοντο - they met with Philip]
And with Phillip intending to buy anything and everything you may sell [him], the ambassadors sailed to Macedonia.
(ἐξομολογοῦμαι...οὐ συνήκα "πρεσβευτής" :oops: )
After the ambassadors sailed to Macedonia they met with Phillip who intended to buy everything you might be willing to sell.
Jordan Day
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Stephen Hughes
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Reaching for help when reach your limits

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 3rd, 2014, 12:24 am

Jordan Day wrote:Not sure...am I allowed to use LSJ? Im sure there is some classical usage I am unfamiliar with.
Decide for yourself what reference works you use, and when. I try to work with them as later as possible. We are in the final stages here - talking about the why's and how's.

Think of (or guess) two or three possibilities before you go to a reference work. Same like if you don't know a word in a passage, make your best guesses and see which one the reference work agrees with and take that. One of the benefit of doing "unseens" is that you will become comfortable in dealing with multiple uncertainties without feeling lost.

If you are sure that you don't something, then you need to prepare to learn something new (not directly related to your previous knowledge), later you will probably find that it is in fact related to something you do know.
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:1. Why are these two words in the accusative? ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε, and this phrase in the infinitive? μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
I honestly don't know; the infinitive here, as you said, is being used to express purpose.
Okay, but after reading Vince's translation, there is apparently another way to take it. What is that other way?
[Hint: What sentence constructions is an infinitive part of?]
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:2. If it were not in indirect speech after κελεύειν, what mood would ποιήσοντα be? Future indicative, future subjunctive or future participle (what case)?
2) future indicative "ὁ Φίλιππος ποιήσει πάντα ὑμεῖς ψηφίσεσθε" :?:
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:3. What mood would this be? ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε
3) indicative "ψηφίσεσθε"
You could be right (perhaps 30% chance), but considering that the verb introducing the the indirect speech is κελεύειν not λέγειν, I would give it a higher chance of being an imperative.
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:4. What mood would this be? μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
4) I would assume the subjunctive..."ἵνα μὴ προσέχητε τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις"
Yes, if it is taken as a final clause; "He commaned / exhorted (all of the things about the treaty and Philip) so that other people would not listen to the ne'er-do-well whingers, BUT if it was taken as part of the indirect speech, after κελεύειν then it would probably be an imperative negated by μή
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:5. Why is the ὡς here?
5) Not sure...am I allowed to use LSJ? Im sure there is some classical usage I am unfamiliar with. As you said, Vince gets "on the understanding that" because he takes it adverbally (πῶς;...ὠς...)
Let's discuss this further after you look in the reference works. You can download Smyth's grammar from Textkit
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jordan Day wrote:Is it basically saying "[ὡς] ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε ταῦτα ὁ Φίλλιπος ποιήσει" ?
Perhaps, but does that Greek reflect your English "as you will vote on whatever Phillip will do"? It seems a little different.
Yes, i suppose it does.
Which do you see happening first, the Athenians vote and make a decision, or Philip makes an action?
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Try this on for size,
Narrative - Φιλίπου δὲ ἀγοράσοντος ἅπαντα ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς πωλήσητε, οἱ πρεσβευταὶ ἔπλευσαν πρὸς Μακεδονίαν. (Philip is extra to the narrative)
If he is involved as here, then perhaps - οἱ πρεσβευταὶ πλεύσαντες πρὸς Μακεδονίαν εἰς λόγους Φιλίπῳ ἀφίκοντο ἀγοράσοντι ἅπαντα ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς πωλήσωσιν. [εἰς λόγους Φιλίπῳ ἀφίκοντο - they met with Philip]
And with Phillip intending to buy anything and everything you may sell [him], the ambassadors sailed to Macedonia.
(ἐξομολογοῦμαι...οὐ συνήκα "πρεσβευτής" :oops: )
After the ambassadors sailed to Macedonia they met with Phillip who intended to buy everything you might be willing to sell.
:? Yes, I assume you can translate them. I meant that you could use them as syntactic patterns to compare this piece from Demosthenes. [I'm sorry that they are my own compositions, not quotes from classical authours. I don't know how to do searches for syntax patterns to get you a pair of nice quotes within a limited set of vocabulary items.]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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