"Unseen" Attic Oratory

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
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Stephen Hughes
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"Unseen" Attic Oratory

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 30th, 2014, 7:04 am

Jordan Day wrote:Ok, im giving this one more shot without any lexicon or grammar...
Perhaps you could try this too. Same rules as before...
  • Don't search for it online.
  • Don't use a dictionary or grammar.
  • Only give yourself 30 to 45 minutes to try your best to "break" it.
  • Do what you can first, by yourself, then have a look down a bit on the page where I have listed a few vocabulary items and relevant NT passages where the sense is similar.
The statesman looks for honour after defeat - Don't complain make it better. wrote:ἐκέλευεν οὖν τοὺς λέγοντας ἐν τῷ δήμῳ τῇ μὲν εἰρήνῃ μὴ ἐπιτιμᾶν: οὐ γὰρ ἄξιον εἶναι εἰρήνην λύειν: εἰ δέ τι μὴ καλῶς γέγραπται ἐν τῇ εἰρήνῃ, τοῦτ᾽ ἐπανορθώσασθαι, ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε. ἂν δὲ διαβάλλωσι μέν, αὐτοὶ δὲ μηδὲν γράφωσι δι᾽ οὗ ἡ μὲν εἰρήνη ἔσται, παύσεται δ᾽ ἀπιστούμενος ὁ Φίλιππος, μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
Here are a few hints:

εἰρήνη - big hint: it's a document, not just the state.
ἐπιτιμᾶν - cf. Luke 4:39 Καὶ ἐπιστὰς ἐπάνω αὐτῆς, ἐπετίμησεν τῷ πυρετῷ (a thing not a person), καὶ ἀφῆκεν ("stop it working" effect) αὐτήν· παραχρῆμα δὲ ἀναστᾶσα διηκόνει αὐτοῖς. And Luke 8:24 Ὁ δὲ ἐγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ τῷ κλύδωνι τοῦ ὕδατος (things not people)· καὶ ἐπαύσαντο ("stop it working" effect), καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη.
ἄξιον - πρέπον
τῇ μὲν εἰρήνῃ μὴ ἐπιτιμᾶν: οὐ γὰρ ἄξιον εἶναι εἰρήνην λύειν - (as an actual imperative it might be) τῇ μὲν εἰρήνῃ μὴ ἐπιτιμᾶτε: οὐ γὰρ ἄξιον ἐστιν εἰρήνην λύειν ("stop it working" effect)
ἐπανορθώσασθαι - cf. 2 Timothy 3:16 Πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος καὶ ὠφέλιμος πρὸς διδασκαλίαν, πρὸς ἔλεγχον, πρὸς ἐπανόρθωσιν, πρὸς παιδείαν τὴν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ· cf. Luke 7:43 Ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ Σίμων εἶπεν, Ὑπολαμβάνω ὅτι ᾧ τὸ πλεῖον ἐχαρίσατο. Ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ὀρθῶς ἔκρινας.
ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽(α)...
μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν (+ dat.) - ἀκούειν (+acc.) infinitive of purpose.
Last edited by Louis L Sorenson on May 31st, 2014, 6:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Changed font size
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Font size

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 30th, 2014, 11:16 pm

I was thinking that if the font was small, eyes wouldn't wander to the hints unimpeded.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jordan Day
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Re: "Unseen" Attic Oratory

Post by Jordan Day » May 31st, 2014, 11:10 am

Ok, this only took about 25 mins, but I could be WAY off in my understanding of what is being said here.
I definitely would have forgotten the meaning of ἐπανορθώσασθαι without your hint :)
ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ - I think I understand this....let me know

Jordan wrote:Then, he was ordering to rebuke not those speaking peacefully in the assembly, for it is not proper to loose peace. But if something has not been well written in peace, this is to be corrected, as you ψηφίσησθε (rejected?) everything Phillip made (wrote?). But if they should indeed διαβάλλωσι (put forth?), and they should write nothing through which peace will come, the untrusted Phillip will put a stop to it, so that such men should not be paid attention to (heard).
Jordan Day
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Stephen Hughes
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First feedback

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 31st, 2014, 1:17 pm

Jordan Day wrote:ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ - I think I understand this....let me know
ποιήσοντα ≠ ποιήσαντα as you have taken it to be

As an overal comment... Think about what syntactical structure the verbs require:
  • ἐπιτιμᾶν - look at the hints again.... What case is the "object" of this verb.
  • κελεύειν (as a verb of speaking needs an acc. & inf.) There is only one accusative here, and only one infinitive.
  • ἄξιον (+ inf.)
  • γέγραπται ἐν τῇ εἰρήνῃ - cf. Mark 1:2 γέγραπται ἐν τοῖς προφήταις. An εἰρήνη is written document - setting out the agreed terms for peace. It is a peace tr....
  • τι & τοῦτο are the same.
  • ὑμεῖς explicit / emphatic
  • ψηφίζεσθαι - The only place in the New Testament that is close to this is Acts 26:10 (but not close enough to be spelt out here). The word means "to vote" - he is addressing the leaders of Athens.
  • ποιήσοντα ≠ ποιήσαντα it comes in sequence after the ψηφίζεσθαι, not before
  • παύσεται (+ present participle of the action that is stopped being done)
  • διαβαλεῖν - Do you remember what the literal meaning of the διάβολος is? In this case, they just spend their time ______-ing Phillip
  • μηδὲν ... δι᾽ οὗ are the same
μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις - who does this refer to? Should Philip not pay attention to them or should the leaders not??
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Demosthenes, On the Halonnesus 7.22

Post by Stephen Hughes » May 31st, 2014, 1:31 pm

The reference is Demosthenes, On the Halonnesus 7.22
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jordan Day
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Re: "Unseen" Attic Oratory

Post by Jordan Day » May 31st, 2014, 6:02 pm

Thank you for your corrections.
Let's try this again...
Thinking I knew the meaning of "εἰρήνη" I didn't bother with the hint. I should have. :oops:



Then, he was ordering those speaking in the assembly not to rebuke (revoke?) the peace treaty, for it is not proper to nullify the peace treaty. But if something has not been well written in the treaty, this is to be corrected, as you yourselves may vote on everything Phillip will write. But if some should slander, they will not write anything themselves through which the peace treaty will come, and Phillip will be cease being distrusted, so that such men should not be heard.
Stephen Hughes wrote:μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις - who does this refer to? Should Philip not pay attention to them or should the leaders not??
Im not positive...is there a way to know for sure?

Im having trouble with the mid/passive voices in παύσεται and ἀπιστούμενος
Jordan Day
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Stephen Hughes
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Word order is a siren's call luring you to the rocks

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 1st, 2014, 2:04 am

You have really come about as far with that as could be expected with a knowledge of New Testament Greek, but there is just one general point about word order.
Demosthenes, [i]On the Halonnesus[/i] 7.22 wrote:ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε
Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jordan Day wrote:ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ - I think I understand this....let me know
ποιήσοντα ≠ ποιήσαντα as you have taken it to be
as you yourselves may vote on everything Phillip will write
Don't rely on word order to give you the interrelations between words! Word order patterns in Greek are quite formalised, but they are different from English. In this case, I would expect the ἅπαντα to be right before the ὅσα. The differrent order is used for emphasis - EVERYTHING

Consider, the Golden Rule:
Πάντα οὖν ὅσα ἂν θέλητε ἵνα ποιῶσιν ὑμῖν οἱ ἄνθρωποι, οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ποιεῖτε αὐτοῖς· οὗτος γάρ ἐστιν ὁ νόμος καὶ οἱ προφῆται.
or
Luke 4:40 wrote:Δύνοντος δὲ τοῦ ἡλίου, παντες ὅσοι εἶχον ἀσθενοῦντας νόσοις ποικίλαις ἤγαγον αὐτοὺς πρὸς αὐτόν· ὁ δὲ ἑνὶ ἑκάστῳ αὐτῶν τὰς χεῖρας ἐπιθεὶς ἐθεράπευσεν αὐτούς.
Where Πάντα and ὅσα are together. There are many other examples of this (expected) word order.

Perhaps, if we add ὑμῖν, it could be clearer... ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα {ὑμῖν} ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε.

You are trying hard to turn this on its head.Philip wasn't following Ullman and Wade's Shock and Awe military doctrine, or even Clausewitz's principle of the destruction of enemy forces and the aqutisition of land (especially capitals). Philip wanted to see a unified and equal Greece, with a minimum of destruction. He was acieving peace as he conquered, not just winning a military operation. Leaving the "capitals", allowed the leaders of various city-states and opportunity and freedom, as in this case, to debate, modify and accept his offers. War ends in peace, not just victory or occupation. To put it another way, Philip did not snatch away his children's most precious toys, and then demand obedience before he would give them back - he wooed them to share and play together.

The most "natural" way for an English speaker to take it would be as you have, but neither the order of clauses nor the word order within clauses is the sweet-sounding friend that they appear to be.

Going beyond the New Testament Greek.
Demosthenes, [i]On the Halonnesus[/i] 7.22 wrote:ἐκέλευεν οὖν τοὺς λέγοντας ἐν τῷ δήμῳ τῇ μὲν εἰρήνῃ μὴ ἐπιτιμᾶν
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἐπιτιμᾶν - cf. Luke 4:39 Καὶ ἐπιστὰς ἐπάνω αὐτῆς, ἐπετίμησεν τῷ πυρετῷ (a thing not a person), καὶ ἀφῆκεν ("stop it working" effect) αὐτήν· παραχρῆμα δὲ ἀναστᾶσα διηκόνει αὐτοῖς. And Luke 8:24 Ὁ δὲ ἐγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ τῷ κλύδωνι τοῦ ὕδατος (things not people)· καὶ ἐπαύσαντο ("stop it working" effect), καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη.
Did Jesus address the fever, wind and waves directly, or did he address the πενθερὰ τοῦ Σίμωνος or the οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ who just woke him up and were beside themselves?

So, apparently, there is a difference between the NT usage and the one we see here... Let's look into it.

The people in this passage were talking about the peace treaty in a formal debate, not to it. The basis of "rebuking" someone is to find fault with them first, and then second to get them to stop. When this word is used in the Gospels to describe Jesus action, the most important thing is the second, the stopping. In the case of this passage, it is the first thing, the finding fault, while also having as their aim the second thing, the stopping. I.e. ἐπιτιμᾶν is finding fault, saying something (to or about) and wanting / making it stop.
Demosthenes, [i]On the Halonnesus[/i] 7.22 wrote:παύσεται δ᾽ ἀπιστούμενος ὁ Φίλιππος
Jordan Day wrote:Im having trouble with the mid/passive voices in παύσεται and ἀπιστούμενος ... (translation))"and Phillip will be cease being distrusted"
With a New Testament background, I wouldn't anticipate a problem with παύσεται being middle... In the earlier period, there is a distinction between παύειν "cause to cease" and παύεσθαι "to cease". Have a look at
Acts 5:42 wrote:Πᾶσάν τε ἡμέραν, ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ καὶ κατ’ οἶκον, οὐκ ἐπαύοντο διδάσκοντες καὶ εὐαγγελιζόμενοι Ἰησοῦν τὸν χριστόν.
That is the common usage here and in most other places in the New Testament. I'm not sure meaning of παύειν "cause to cease", is expressed by in the New Testament - it seems to be indirectly expressed. Physically restraining someone seems to be with καταπαύειν, which occurs just the once as a transitive verb in
Acts 14:18 wrote:Καὶ ταῦτα λέγοντες, μόλις κατέπαυσαν τοὺς ὄχλους τοῦ μὴ θύειν αὐτοῖς.
The where only place in the NT where παύειν = "cause to cease" is in
1 Peter 3:10 wrote:Ὁ γὰρ θέλων ζωὴν ἀγαπᾷν, καὶ ἰδεῖν ἡμέρας ἀγαθάς, παυσάτω τὴν γλῶσσαν αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ κακοῦ, καὶ χείλη αὐτοῦ τοῦ μὴ λαλῆσαι δόλον·
Which is a "quote" of an older type of Greek.

The supplementary participle ἀπιστούμενος < ἀπιστεῖν, has two meanings just as πιστός means either "trusting / believing" or "(capable of) being trusted / believed" plus the alpha privative. Let's leave both of those possibilities open till we have a good reason to choose one in preference to the other. Aspect (tense) is not an issue here, it being the present participle is the syntax required by the verb παύειν, so let's not make a big to-do about it - it's effectively unmarked for aspect. This is not a future participle, so it is not marked for time either.

As for the question of voice, if ἀπιστῶν is taken to mean "not trusting (others)", then ἀπιστούμενος would mean "seen by others as being not trusting". If it is taken to mean "not being trustworthy", then the middle participle would mean "seen by others (/ seem to others) as not being trustworthy". They are debating terms for a peace treaty, some people are disparaging Philip, and finding fault in his offer for peace, they are deciding whether to trust him or not, so they are wondering if Philip is πιστός "(capable of) being trusted / believed". So, I would take ἀπιστούμενος as "(seemingly) untrustworthy".

I'll post a fair copy under this post, and when you have been through yours again and you are ready, you could scroll down and look at it. 8-)
Demosthenes, [i]On the Halonnesus[/i] 7.22 wrote:μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
The way that I take this phrase is quite different from the way that the translator does. I take it as adding an extra result to the phrase παύσεται δ᾽ ἀπιστούμενος ὁ Φίλιππος. I don't see Philip as ordering the Athenians who to listen to in their parliament. It is my thinking that the current speaker wants the assembly to not listen to such people. But, of course I recognise that I am an amateur :cry: and poorly qualified to make that assertation, and that there will be other possible readings of the passage. :roll:
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on June 1st, 2014, 2:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Fair copy - Demosthenes, On the Halonnesus 7.22

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 1st, 2014, 2:17 am

Demosthenes, On the Halonnesus 7.22, [url=http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0070%3Aspeech%3D7%3Asection%3D22]English translation by J.H. Vince[/url] wrote: Pytho therefore urged public speakers not to attack the peace, because it was not good policy to rescind it, but to amend any unsatisfactory clause, on the understanding that Philip was prepared to fall in with your suggestions. If, however, the speakers confined themselves to abusing Philip without drafting any proposals which, while preserving the terms of peace, might clear Philip of suspicion, he asked you to pay no attention to such fellows.
Obviously, the English here has been spruced up a little, but the sense should be about the same as what you have gotten from the Greek.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Jordan Day
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Re: "Unseen" Attic Oratory

Post by Jordan Day » June 1st, 2014, 10:05 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:But, of course I recognise that I am an amateur :cry: and poorly qualified to make that assertation
If YOU are an "amateur" then im just gonna go ahead and quit studying, pack my bags, and go home :lol:

ἐκέλευεν οὖν τοὺς λέγοντας ἐν τῷ δήμῳ τῇ μὲν εἰρήνῃ μὴ ἐπιτιμᾶν: οὐ γὰρ ἄξιον εἶναι εἰρήνην λύειν: εἰ δέ τι μὴ καλῶς γέγραπται ἐν τῇ εἰρήνῃ, τοῦτ᾽ ἐπανορθώσασθαι,
J.H. Vince wrote: Pytho therefore urged public speakers not to attack the peace, because it was not good policy to rescind it, but to amend any unsatisfactory clause,
Ok, this much made perfect sense.

But then...
J.H. Vince wrote:on the understanding that Philip was prepared to fall in with your suggestions. If, however, the speakers confined themselves to abusing Philip without drafting any proposals which, while preserving the terms of peace, might clear Philip of suspicion, he asked you to pay no attention to such fellows.
How does he get "on the understanding that Philip was prepared to fall in with your suggestions" from "ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε." :!: :?:
It seems like this should say something like "as you will vote on whatever Phillip will do". I guess I don't know much about the meaning of future participles. Vince seems to understand ποιήσοντα as "prepared to do".
Is it basically saying "ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε ταῦτα ὁ Φίλλιπος ποιήσει" ?
Jordan Day
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Stephen Hughes
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A few questions about indirect speech

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 2nd, 2014, 1:44 am

Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:But, of course I recognise that I am an amateur :cry: and poorly qualified to make that assertation
If YOU are an "amateur" then im just gonna go ahead and quit studying, pack my bags, and go home :lol:
I read and study Greek for my own enjoyment - it is a hobby. It's true that I followed a four year (a preliminary beginners' year for those who had not done Greek at school + 3 years with the regular students) course of study in Classical Greek - mostly just passing at crop-duster level above 50% - which perhaps gives me a little experience in dealing with texts, but certainly no expertise in the language.

A few Questions
  1. Why are these two words in the accusative? ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε, and this phrase in the infinitive? μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
  2. If it were not in indirect speech after κελεύειν, what mood would ποιήσοντα be? Future indicative, future subjunctive or future participle (what case)?
  3. What mood would this be? ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε
  4. What mood would this be? μὴ προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνθρώποις.
  5. Why is the ὡς here?
Jordan Day wrote:How does he get "on the understanding that Philip was prepared to fall in with your suggestions" from "ὡς ἅπαντα Φίλιππον ποιήσοντα ὅσ᾽ ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε." :!: :?:
It seems like this should say something like "as you will vote on whatever Phillip will do". I guess I don't know much about the meaning of future participles. Vince seems to understand ποιήσοντα as "prepared to do".
There is a system of "codes" in translation, where translators express their understanding of the Greek grammar in formalised correspondences between what a particular translator thought the Greek grammar and English constructions used to render it. When I was a student, I was much better at recognising them ... but now I don't refer think of Greek in terms of English so often ...
The "on the understanding that" is perhaps because he takes this phrase as adverbial. The "was prepared to" seems to express a disposition towards action. The "fall in with" is perhaps "poetic licence" in translation. The "suggestions" are what they would take to Philip, those suggestions would of course be the resolutions that they had agreed upon by voting.
Jordan Day wrote:Is it basically saying "[ὡς] ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς ψηφίσησθε ταῦτα ὁ Φίλλιπος ποιήσει" ?
Perhaps, but does that Greek reflect your English "as you will vote on whatever Phillip will do"? It seems a little different.

Try this on for size,
Narrative - Φιλίπου δὲ ἀγοράσοντος ἅπαντα ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς πωλήσητε, οἱ πρεσβευταὶ ἔπλευσαν πρὸς Μακεδονίαν. (Philip is extra to the narrative)
If he is involved as here, then perhaps - οἱ πρεσβευταὶ πλεύσαντες πρὸς Μακεδονίαν εἰς λόγους Φιλίπῳ ἀφίκοντο ἀγοράσοντι ἅπαντα ὅσ' ἂν ὑμεῖς πωλήσωσιν. [εἰς λόγους Φιλίπῳ ἀφίκοντο - they met with Philip]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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