Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

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Wes Wood
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Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Wes Wood » June 11th, 2014, 9:09 am

That helps immensely. I forgot the larger context of him having a disability in the first place :oops: Context is king, and I dropped the ball.
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Wes Wood
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§4 - Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Wes Wood » June 11th, 2014, 4:54 pm

This one was much easier once I got it going. I am unsure about the word ειρησθω. I am assuming it is a form of λεγω that I have not seen before. Also, for the word βραχυτατων I took a guess based of the meaning of βραχυς. As I said, I feel much better about the end than the beginning.

Then indeed about these things so much to me (was said?). But it belongs to me to speak about these things. Since it is possible, I will say a few words. For the plaintiff testifies that I am ineligible (I think this captures the sense) to receive silver from the city for I am both able-bodied-and not disabled-and know a trade so that I am able to live without being given this [money].

I await the moment of reckoning. :D
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Jordan Day
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#2 Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Jordan Day » June 11th, 2014, 9:39 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Lysias 24.2 wrote:καίτοι ὅστις τούτοις φθονεῖ οὓς οἱ ἄλλοι ἐλεοῦσι, τίνος ἂν ὑμῖν ὁ τοιοῦτος ¹ἀποσχέσθαι¹ ²δοκεῖ² πονηρίας; εἰ μὲν γὰρ ³ἕνεκα³ ⁴χρημάτων⁴ με συκοφαντεῖ —— : εἰ δ᾽ ὡς ἐχθρὸν ⁵ἑαυτοῦ⁵ με τιμωρεῖται, ψεύδεται: διὰ γὰρ τὴν πονηρίαν αὐτοῦ οὔτε φίλῳ οὔτε ἐχθρῷ πώποτε ⁶ἐχρησάμην⁶ αὐτῷ
Jordan Day wrote:And yet, if someone envies such people on whom others have compassion, what sort of evil would such a person ²seem to you | think fit² to ¹possess | abstain from¹? If indeed it was ³because of³ ⁴material possessions | money⁴, he is blackmailing | trying to blackmail me! But if as an ⁵his⁵ enemy, he is punishing me ⁵for himself! | , he is lying! For on account of his evil, I have never ⁶treated⁶ him as a friend nor as a foe.

²δοκεῖ (seem or think)- δοκεῖ is very common in Matthew in the question Τί ὑμῖν δοκεῖ; (Matthew 18:12 et passim in variations), in which case it is an impersonal, but here it is full verb with a subject like Luke 8:18 .
Ok, so we would have "...what sort of evil would such a person think fit to abstain from?" (basically saying "What evil is he not capable of !?")
But how does the ὑμῖν fit in? When I see δοκεῖ and a dative pronoun, I automatically think "It seems to this/that person/people"
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Stephen Hughes
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Ἰορδάνης §2 - Feedback - δοκεῖ

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 12th, 2014, 3:33 am

Jordan Day wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Lysias 24.2 wrote:τίνος ἂν ὑμῖν ὁ τοιοῦτος ¹ἀποσχέσθαι¹ ²δοκεῖ² πονηρίας;
Jordan Day wrote:what sort of evil would such a person ²seem to you | think fit² to ¹possess | abstain from¹?
Stephen Hughes wrote:²δοκεῖ (seem or think)- δοκεῖ is very common in Matthew in the question Τί ὑμῖν δοκεῖ; (Matthew 18:12 et passim in variations), in which case it is an impersonal, but here it is full verb with a subject like Luke 8:18 [καὶ ὃ δοκεῖ ἔχειν ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ].
Ok, so we would have "...what sort of evil would such a person think fit to abstain from?" (basically saying "What evil is he not capable of !?")
But how does the ὑμῖν fit in? When I see δοκεῖ and a dative pronoun, I automatically think "It seems to this/that person/people"
Yes, from our (English & Koine) point of view, the understanding is impersonal, but the construction is not. Impersonal v. full verb is a difference between Koine and Classical Greek. I'm sorry to have man-handled (mislead) you to this question, but it is the question you need to be asking.From your Koine point-of-view it acts like both a full verb and like an impersonal!. You needed to see that conundrum, and work through it, not gloss over the fact that ὁ τοιοῦτος is nominative.

You've begun with the right question, and now, if you want to see some serious turpidity in the grammatical waters, you could read on...

The true impersonal construction is found in constructions like
Luke 1:3 wrote:ἔδοξεν κἀμοί, παρηκολουθηκότι ἄνωθεν πᾶσιν ἀκριβῶς, καθεξῆς σοι γράψαι, κράτιστε Θεόφιλε,
or...

To return to my example that I used previously
Luke 8:18 wrote:Βλέπετε οὖν πῶς ἀκούετε· ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν ἔχῃ, δοθήσεται αὐτῷ· καὶ ὃς ἐὰν μὴ ἔχῃ, καὶ ὃ δοκεῖ ἔχειν ἀρθήσεται ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ.
Is it ὃ δοκεῖ ἔχειν
What is the construction in this verse
Mk 10:42 wrote:{ Ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς προσκαλεσάμενος αὐτοὺς λέγει αὐτοῖς, Οἴδατε ὅτι οἱ δοκοῦντες ἄρχειν τῶν ἐθνῶν κατακυριεύουσιν αὐτῶν· καὶ οἱ μεγάλοι αὐτῶν κατεξουσιάζουσιν αὐτῶν.
Is it οἱ δοκοῦντες (ἐν ἑαυτοῖς) ἄρχειν (+ gen.) which is like they way an English speaker would imagine a person thinking or οἱ δοκοῦντες (τοῖς ἀνθρώποις) ἄρχειν (+gen.) where others are led to an opinion (by what they see) or οἱ δοκοῦντες (ἑαυτοῖς) ἄρχειν (+ gen.) where the reflexivity of appearance is approximated by the English word "think"? But spelling out the reflexive pronoun would have a different (emphatic) significance as in
Acts 26:9 wrote:Ἐγὼ μὲν οὖν ἔδοξα ἐμαυτῷ πρὸς τὸ ὄνομα Ἰησοῦ τοῦ Ναζωραίου δεῖν πολλὰ ἐναντία πρᾶξαι·
"Making an ignorant guess about what would be the best thing to do, I did many things against ..."

There are also all those examples of δοκεῖτε and occasionally in the third person, "you think (hypothetically / for argument's sake)" / "suppose". (What seemed most profitable / plausible / likely to you is...). Think of that idea, and then look again at the familiar construction in
John 11:56 wrote:Ἐζήτουν οὖν τὸν Ἰησοῦν, καὶ ἔλεγον μετ’ ἀλλήλων ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἑστηκότες, Τί δοκεῖ ὑμῖν; Ὅτι οὐ μὴ ἔλθῃ εἰς τὴν ἑορτήν;
I mean don't just take Τί δοκεῖ ὑμῖν as "What do you think?", it is more of "What seems plausible to you?", "What would you consider most probable?", or something along the lines of "(educated / informed) guess".
1 Corinthians 4:9 wrote:Δοκῶ γὰρ ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους· ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ ἀγγέλοις, καὶ ἀνθρώποις.
"I can't say for certain, but my best guess is that..." would be assuming Koine idiom, while taking it as "It seems to me that ..." would be an understanding based on the supposition that Paul was using a phrase like we see here in Lysias in the classical idiom (and likewise some other places in 1 Corinthians where you could either argue the elaborate usage of the classical idiom, or a moment of quiet self-refection and the feeling of the honesty of writer's soul in un-self-effacing humility). Anyway, we have wandered too far from Lysias, I think...

On another line of questioning... Is φάντασμα in this verse nominative or accusative?
Mark 6:49 wrote:Οἱ δέ, ἰδόντες αὐτὸν περιπατοῦντα ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης, ἔδοξαν φάντασμα εἶναι, καὶ ἀνέκραξαν·
"Instinctively" you take it as accusative, but consider these other verses... [There is of course an understood sense of αὐτοῖς here]
The same could be asked of
Acts 25:27 wrote:Ἄλογον γάρ μοι δοκεῖ, πέμποντα δέσμιον, μὴ καὶ τὰς κατ’ αὐτοῦ αἰτίας σημᾶναι.
in regard to the ἄλογον (πρᾶγμα).

Perhaps, the closest example to the part in Lysias we are considering is
Luke 10:36 wrote:Τίς οὖν τούτων τῶν τριῶν πλησίον δοκεῖ σοι γεγονέναι τοῦ ἐμπεσόντος εἰς τοὺς λῃστάς;
But γεγονέναι is sometimes γεγονέναι is nearly equivalent to εἶναι. We know πλησίον is indeclinable, but what case is it here?

Also, in
Acts 12:9 wrote:Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ἠκολούθει αὐτῷ· καὶ οὐκ ᾔδει ὅτι ἀληθές ἐστιν τὸ γινόμενον διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου, ἐδόκει δὲ ὅραμα βλέπειν.
it would be first impulse to take ὅραμα as an accusative with βλέπειν, but if we substituted ἄγγελος for ὅραμα, would it be ἐδόκει δὲ ἄγγελος βλέπειν or ἐδόκει δὲ ἄγγελον βλέπειν? That's the difference between the classical and New Testament idiom in this regard.

With regard to that, look at this verse
Acts 15:22 wrote:Τότε ἔδοξεν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις καὶ τοῖς πρεσβυτέροις σὺν ὅλῃ τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ, ἐκλεξαμένους ἄνδρας ἐξ αὐτῶν πέμψαι εἰς Ἀντιόχειαν σὺν Παύλῳ καὶ Βαρνάβᾳ, Ἰούδαν τὸν ἐπικαλούμενον Βαρσαββᾶν, καὶ Σίλαν, ἄνδρας ἡγουμένους ἐν τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς,
Why is ἐκλεξαμένους ἄνδρας accusative, rather than nominative as ὁ τοιοῦτος was in Lysias?

Why are there two datives in this verse
Acts 15:28 wrote:Ἔδοξεν γὰρ τῷ ἁγίῳ πνεύματι, καὶ ἡμῖν, μηδὲν πλέον ἐπιτίθεσθαι ὑμῖν βάρος, πλὴν τῶν ἐπάναγκες τούτων
There is a New Testament "remnant" of this more flexible construction with only the verb εἶναι .

At first glance, it seems that the classical idiom is used to characterise the Philosophers on the Areopagus:
Acts 17:18 wrote:Τινὲς δὲ καὶ τῶν Ἐπικουρείων καὶ τῶν Στοϊκῶν φιλοσόφων συνέβαλλον αὐτῷ. Καί τινες ἔλεγον, Τί ἂν θέλοι ὁ σπερμολόγος οὗτος λέγειν; Οἱ δέ, Ξένων δαιμονίων δοκεῖ καταγγελεὺς εἶναι· ὅτι τὸν Ἰησοῦν καὶ τὴν ἀνάστασιν εὐηγγελίζετο.
, but actually this construction with εἶναι is well within Koine usage, as in
1 Corinthians 3:18 wrote:Μηδεὶς ἑαυτὸν ἐξαπατάτω· εἴ τις δοκεῖ σοφὸς εἶναι ἐν ὑμῖν ἐν τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, μωρὸς γενέσθω, ἵνα γένηται σοφός.
Last edited by Stephen Carlson on July 17th, 2014, 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added some missing citations to Acts
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Wes Wood §4- ἡ ἐρχομένη διόρθωσις

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 12th, 2014, 4:56 am

Wes Wood wrote:I forgot the larger context of him having a disability in the first place :oops: Context is king, and I dropped the ball.
If you are dropping the ball, that must be cricket or Rugby (league)?

The lecturer that I read Homer with in my third or fourth year of classical Greek made an allusion to cricket at least in every class, and sometimes a few times. It used to seem that Hector, Achilles, the Achaeans and Homer himself were all Englishmen, who possessed the highest virtues of courage, loyalty and honour to which Englishmen should aspire - and that was in Sydney University!?

[Actually, I'm not experienced with Homer - I guess that I've only read about 16 or 18 books and other works].
Wes Wood wrote:I await the moment of reckoning. :D
Considering what day it is today, ἡ ἡμέρα τῆς ἐπισκοπῆς (Isaiah 10:3) will be the night of my visiting your rendering-of-the-sense for section 4.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 (and football) wrote:Αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἀκριβῶς οἴδατε ὅτι ἡ ἡμέρα Κυρίου ὡς κλέπτης ἐν νυκτὶ οὕτως ἔρχεται· (I'll get back to this this evening before the opening ceremony) 3 ὅταν γὰρ λέγωσιν, Εἰρήνη καὶ ἀσφάλεια (the goal-keepers try), τότε αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλεθρος (the strikers will score goals), ὥσπερ ἡ ὠδὶν τῇ ἐν γαστρὶ ἐχούσῃ, καὶ οὐ μὴ ἐκφύγωσιν (the emotion on the goal-keeper's face). 4 Ὑμεῖς δέ, ἀδελφοί, οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐν σκότει (the USA is in the same time-zone as Brasil), ἵνα ἡ ἡμέρα ὑμᾶς ὡς κλέπτης καταλάβῃ· 5 πάντες ὑμεῖς υἱοὶ φωτός ἐστε καὶ υἱοὶ ἡμέρας (such an advantage)· οὐκ ἐσμὲν νυκτὸς οὐδὲ σκότους (it's not normal to stay up all night watching the football)·
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: §5 - Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 12th, 2014, 9:10 am

Section 5 seems to be one that you can plod through

The speaker continues with his summary of his accusers claims:
Λυσίας, ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου 24.5 wrote:καὶ τεκμηρίοις χρῆται τῆς μὲν τοῦ σώματος ῥώμης, ὅτι ἐπὶ τοὺς ἵππους ἀναβαίνω, τῆς δ᾽ ἐν τῇ τέχνῃ εὐπορίας, ὅτι δύναμαι συνεῖναι δυναμένοις ἀνθρώποις ἀναλίσκειν. τὴν μὲν οὖν ἐκ τῆς τέχνης εὐπορίαν καὶ τὸν ἄλλον τὸν ἐμὸν βίον, οἷος τυγχάνει, πάντας ὑμᾶς οἴμαι γιγνώσκειν: ὅμως δὲ κἀγὼ διὰ βραχέων ἐρῶ.
Hints for §4: (You could look at these after working through it yourself)
  • τεκμήριον - a legal word.
  • τεκμήρια τῆς μέν ..., τῆς δέ... - cf. Acts 1:3 οἷς καὶ παρέστησεν ἑαυτὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τὸ παθεῖν αὐτὸν ἐν πολλοῖς τεκμηρίοις, δι’ ἡμερῶν τεσσαράκοντα ὀπτανόμενος αὐτοῖς, καὶ λέγων τὰ περὶ τῆς βασιλείας τοῦ θεοῦ.
  • ῥώμη - ἰσχύς, δύναμις are the current words. (ῥώμη is not used in the New Testament).
  • εὐπορία - opposite of ἀπορία.
  • συνεῖναι - The most common meaning in the New Testament for this is "to understand", as in Luke 24:45 Τότε διήνοιξεν αὐτῶν τὸν νοῦν, τοῦ συνιέναι τὰς γραφάς (the object is in the accusative)· but here in Lysias, it means the same as in the one occurrence where it has the "earlier" meaning Luke 8:4 Συνιόντος δὲ ὄχλου πολλοῦ, καὶ τῶν κατὰ πόλιν ἐπιπορευομένων πρὸς αὐτόν, εἶπεν διὰ παραβολῆς,
  • τὴν μέν ... - The μέν leaves us with a hanging feeling right down to the γιγνώσκειν.
  • οἷος τυγχάνει - of what sort it happens to be - the gender and number may have been attracted to βίος or may refer to both.
[/size]
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Stephen Hughes
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Wes Wood §4 - Feedback - ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 12th, 2014, 11:40 am

Λυσίας, ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου 24.4 wrote:¹περὶ¹ μὲν οὖν τούτων ³τοσαῦτά³ μοι ²εἰρήσθω²: ⁴ ¹ὑπὲρ¹ ὧν δέ μοι προσήκει λέγειν⁴, ³ ¹ὡς¹ ἂν οἷόν τε ⁵διὰ βραχυτάτων⁵ ³ ἐρῶ.
Wes Wood wrote:Then indeed about these things so much to me (²was said²?). ⁴But it belongs to me to speak about these things.⁴ ³Since it is possible, I will say ⁵a few words⁵ ³. For the plaintiff testifies that I am ineligible (I think this captures the sense) to receive silver from the city for I am both able-bodied-and not disabled-and know a trade so that I am able to live without being given this [money].
Wes Wood wrote:I am unsure about the word ειρησθω. I am assuming it is a form of λεγω that I have not seen before. Also, for the word βραχυτατων I took a guess based of the meaning of βραχυς.
  1. περὶ ... εἰρήσθω: ὑπὲρ ... λέγειν, ὡς ... ἐρῶ - There are one and two half sense units here not three.
  2. εἰρήσθω - Yes, you are right. This is a third person middle-passive imperative of the perfect from εἰρῆσθαι​. cf. 2 Maccabees 6:17 πλὴν ἕως ὑπομνήσεως ταῦθ’ ἡμῖν εἰρήσθω δι’ ὀλίγων δ’ ἐλευστέον ἐπὶ τὴν διήγησιν. Perfect suggests that it has gone before. Third person suggests that he didn't do the speaking. It's something like "What's said against me is said, and let it stay said, and blimey there was a lot of it!"
  3. τοσαῦτα & ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων - these are a (Laurel and Hardy) contrastive pair.
  4. ὑπὲρ ὧν δέ μοι προσήκει λέγειν "But it belongs to me to speak about these things." (JD) - that is almost the sense. You just need to add an implied ταῦτα (accusative) at the beginning, and the sense will be clearer. [The implied ταῦτα is to be read with the final word ἐρῶ.]
  5. βραχυτατων "a few words" (JD) - never separate a noun and its preposition. The preposition gives the noun an adverbal force. Specifically, the adverbial force of διά in this case is to say that he will keep each of his points as brief as possible.
  6. ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων - this is one unit "as briefestly as possible (in the briefest possible way), I will ...
I have taken the first μοι as a dative of disadvantage.

The rigaudon of the third suit of the Handel's Water Music has finished, and so has my feedback for you at this time.
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Wes Wood §4 - Feedback - ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Wes Wood » June 12th, 2014, 1:29 pm

"Therefore indeed let these many things which were spoken against me stand. But about these things it belongs to me to speak, I will speak as briefly as possible."


That was a very enlightening exchange for me. It helped me realize that I can't make satisfactory sense of the part of the phrase in bold below.
ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων

Would you please translate this phrase as woodenly as possible for my benefit? Thank you again for donating your time posting and helping us through these readings. I appreciate it. I am afraid I am developing a migraine, so I may or may not be able to respond more today.
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Stephen Hughes
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Wooden translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 12th, 2014, 3:43 pm

Some idioms mean more than the sum of their parts, and some like, "It's raining cats and dogs" mean less.

In this case it means less. The game's about to start so I'll work out something wooden and unintelligible for you tomorrow.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε

Post by Stephen Hughes » June 12th, 2014, 6:35 pm

Wes Wood wrote:Thank you again for donating your time posting and helping us through these readings. I appreciate it.
Stephen Hughes in the [url=http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2432&p=15364&hilit=flames#p15364]What vocabulary does the NT word-list represent?[/url] thread wrote:I'm too close to the fire to see the flames on the difference between Koine and Attic vocabulary. I need to give that question some analytical and statistical distance.
We are both benefited by your efforts.
Wes Wood wrote:It helped me realize that I can't make satisfactory sense of the part of the phrase in bold below.
ὡς ἂν οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων

Would you please translate this phrase as woodenly as possible for my benefit? Thank you again for donating your time posting and helping us through these readings.
  • ὡς (ἂν) οἷόν τε
  • as and what(ever) sort-ly
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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