Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
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Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Lysias §26 Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood » August 21st, 2014, 12:39 am

And now, O Council, having done no wrong I do not wish to obtain the same things from you [that you gave] to others who have done many wrong things, but you will place the same pebble for me that the other councils did, remembering that I did not give an account before them about the goods which I administered on behalf of the city, neither did I hold any office nor am I making audits of an office now, but concerning an obol I am saying only these words.

I still don't feel like this has the phrase properly, but I believe it is the best I can do without looking for help.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Lysias 24 - Feedback Re: Lysias §25 Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 21st, 2014, 10:27 pm

Lysias 24.25 wrote:ἀλλ᾽ οὐ τοιαύταις ἀφορμαῖς τοῦ βίου πρὸς τὰ τοιαῦτα τυγχάνω χρώμενος. ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι λίαν ὑβριστὴς καὶ βίαιος; ἀλλ᾽ οὐδ᾽ ἂν αὐτὸς φήσειεν, εἰ μὴ βούλοιτο καὶ τοῦτο ψεύδεσθαι τοῖς ἄλλοις ὁμοίως. ἀλλ᾽ ὅτι ἐπὶ τῶν τριάκοντα γενόμενος ἐν δυνάμει κακῶς ἐποίησα πολλοὺς τῶν πολιτῶν; ἀλλὰ μετὰ τοῦ ὑμετέρου πλήθους ἔφυγον εἰς Χαλκίδα τὴν ἐπ᾽ Εὐρίπῳ,1 καὶ ἐξόν μοι μετ᾽ ἐκείνων ἀδεῶς πολιτεύεσθαι, μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν εἱλόμην κινδυνεύειν ἀπελθών.
Wes Wood wrote:"But I am not using such resources of life to obtain such things as these. But [is it] could it be that I have upset you because I am greatly insolent and violent? But In contradistinction, consider that he himself has not ever said this, unless he wishes also to lie about this like the rest of the things. Is it because on becoming one during the time of the thirty becoming in power (=oligarchy) I did wrong to many of the citizens 1? But I fled with your crowd into Chalcis which is on the Euripous and it is lawful (despite it being lawful) for me to be a citizen who is not in need (this is an adverb, not a participle - without privations, in my comfortable life, free from want) with those people, but going out with you I chose to risk it (to face dangers)."

1) I don't understand this sentence at all, but I believe the translation is reasonably close.
Referring to a period of Athenian history when a small group ruled.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Lysias 24 - Re: Lysias §25 Quirked English

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 22nd, 2014, 1:08 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Lysias 24.25 (last phrase) wrote:μεθ᾽ ὑμῶν εἱλόμην κινδυνεύειν ἀπελθών.
Wes Wood wrote:but going out with you I chose to risk it (to face dangers)."
It has occurred to me that you "risk it" may have been quirked into an abstract sense.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Lysias 24 - §18 Feedback for Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 22nd, 2014, 2:58 am

I'm sorry, I never got around to getting back to this!! Self-confidence is often a mirage on the horizpn (about to strafe you), that leaves you surprised later.
Lysias 24.18 wrote:καὶ τοῖς μὲν ἰσχυροῖς ἐγχωρεῖ μηδὲν αὐτοῖς πάσχουσιν, οὓς ἂν βουληθῶσιν, ὑβρίζειν, τοῖς δὲ ἀσθενέσιν οὐκ ἔστιν οὔτε ὑβριζομένοις ἀμύνεσθαι τοὺς ὑπάρξαντας οὔτε ὑβρίζειν βουλομένοις περιγίγνεσθαι τῶν ἀδικουμένων. ὥστε μοι δοκεῖ ὁ κατήγορος εἰπεῖν περὶ τῆς ἐμῆς ὕβρεως οὐ σπουδάζων, ἀλλὰ παίζων, οὐδ᾽ ὑμᾶς πεῖσαι βουλόμενος ὡς εἰμὶ τοιοῦτος, ἀλλ᾽ ἐμὲ κωμῳδεῖν βουλόμενος, ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν.
Wes Wood wrote:And to the ones who are strong nothing is permissible to those who are receiving benefits, but they [, themselves,] may commit outrage against whomever they wish. But to the ones who are weak it is not [permissible] neither to defend themselves from the injuries they have incurred nor to be insolent to the ones who wish to prevail against the ones who have been wronged [either themselves or others?]. Therefore it seems to me, [my] accuser is not speaking earnestly about my offenses, but he is joking. And he is not wanting to persuade you that I am like this, but he is wanting to satirize [is this the correct sense?] me. And he is doing a good job."
And to the ones who are strong nothing is permissible to those who are receiving benefits, but they [, themselves,]
I can't quite see how you got this. I can't find the origins of "receive benefits". Perhaps they were in the moving shadow of the 2am moonshine, when time, space and language blend and interchange. πάσχουσιν is a participle of attendant circumstance (if my memory for terms hasn't failed me). The hint (τοῖς ... ἰσχυροῖς ... πάσχουσιν - these three datives go together with ἐγχωρεῖ), suggests that αὐτοῖς goes with πάσχουσιν. "the strong, without any harm coming to themselves". I realise it is perhaps not so good to translate as "harmful", when we have βλαβερός (opp. ὠφέλιμος according to LSJ) (as the first word springing to mind for "harmful"), but "suffering in themselves" sounds like remorse, but I think the Greek is referring to something like "suffer no ill-effects to their person or property (from the law or otherwise)"

ὑβριζομένοι - when they are being injured

τοὺς ὑπάρξαντας - is a phrase that I struggle with more than any other in this speech. It obviously denotes some people either in a group or severally, and it derives from the verb ὑπάρχω. Beyond that my logical deduction is that since ἀμύνεσθαι is a verb to defend, it is likely that the ones who someone defends against are the attackers, and ὑπάρχω means to begin something, then I take the meaning in context to be, "those who instigate attacks against them", something like the 1+1=4.
τοῖς δὲ ἀσθενέσιν οὐκ ἔστιν [οὔτε ...] οὔτε ὑβρίζειν βουλομένοις περιγίγνεσθαι τῶν ἀδικουμένων
nor to be insolent to the ones who wish to prevail against the ones who have been wronged [either themselves or others?
Taking the small structure (phrase view) the βουλομένοις seems to indicate a new group of people, but seen within the wider context, it actually refers to the τοῖς δὲ ἀσθενέσιν as well.

"satirize" - I'm not sure what you are asking about ... the Satyrs were thought to be lustful drunken forest-dwelling lesser deities, who possessed large-scale priapic endowment. I think it is something like, make me look like a buffoon in your eyes here on this "stage".

And he is doing a good job - ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν - How did "ὥσπερ τι" become "and"? ὥσπερ is "like as if".
I think this participle refers to the plaintiff at the time of the plaintiff's speaking, not at the time of the disabled person's speaking.
I take it with an understood μοι - "as if he is trying to do me a favour", "and he makes it look like it helps me". To take it as an absolute (without μοι), then we could look at the New Testament word καλοποιέω
2 Thessalonians 3:13 wrote:Ὑμεῖς δέ, ἀδελφοί, μὴ ἐκκακήσητε καλοποιοῦντες.
As if he is doing a good deed....
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Lysias 24 - Feedback Re: Lysias §25 Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood » August 22nd, 2014, 8:53 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Is it because on becoming one during the time of the thirty becoming in power (=oligarchy)
I see now what it should be, but I want to make sure I fully grasp what γενόμενος is doing here. Is it a singular participle functioning as a plural-one ruling body made up of thirty members? This makes sense, but I want to make sure it is the correct explanation.
Stephen Hughes wrote:It has occurred to me that you "risk it" may have been quirked into an abstract sense.
I believe I am as wrong as you initially suspected. I think the last two of my errors go hand in hand and may be more grievous than the sum of their parts. I will attempt to paint a picture of what my understanding was. "I risked my financial security by leaving with you when I had every right to remain with those who chose to stay." I believe I got the idea that he was in a better place financially before this event than after from the contrast of "those people" who remained. Maybe this will help you to help me with a little more feedback. I don't feel comfortable with this stretch just yet.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Lysias 24 - §18 Feedback for Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood » August 22nd, 2014, 9:56 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: I can't quite see how you got this. I can't find the origins of "receive benefits".
I can't be certain now, but I think I may have had the idea that the ones who were weak/suffering were the same ones who were receiving benefits.
Stephen Hughes wrote: Perhaps they were in the moving shadow of the 2am moonshine, when time, space and language blend and interchange.
:lol: (If I could make the smiley "roll" back and forth, I would.)
Stephen Hughes wrote: "satirize" - I'm not sure what you are asking about ... the Satyrs were thought to be lustful drunken forest-dwelling lesser deities, who possessed large-scale priapic endowment. I think it is something like, make me look like a buffoon in your eyes here on this "stage".
I was meaning "satire" in the modern sense of spoof. I was thinking along the lines of Naked Gun or Scary Movie. Well, not quite as far as these...
Stephen Hughes wrote: priapic endowment
Actor: Cary Elwes, Director: Mel Brooks, Movie: Robin Hood: Men in Tights Scene: Robin Hood singing to Maid Marian in Sherwood Forest, Prop: A well-placed/poorly-placed sword :shock:
Stephen Hughes wrote: And he is doing a good job - ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν - How did "ὥσπερ τι" become "and"? ὥσπερ is "like as if"
I was, and still am, unsure about the referent of ποιῶν. I understand what you are saying and am "almost persuaded," but I will attempt to expose the inner workings of my brain here. I need to figure out where I am wrong. Mainly, is there only one option here? If the answer to this question is an absolute yes, I definitely need to know where I am messing up. I understand it as a choice between, "as if I am doing something good," and "as if he is doing something good." Both of these dependent strongly on the satire idea I was asking about.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Lysias §27 Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood » August 22nd, 2014, 11:02 pm

"And so you will indeed form a correct judgment about all these things, but I, receiving these things from you, will obtain favor, but this man will learn as time passes not to plot against those who are weaker than he is but to overcome his equals."

I am unsure what is going on here with this phrase: τούτων ὑμῖν τυχὼν. Have I mentioned that I am no fan of any word that can be inflected to form this: τυχὼν?
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Lysias 24 - §18 Feedback for Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 23rd, 2014, 1:18 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote: "satirize" - I'm not sure what you are asking about ... the Satyrs were thought to be ...
I was meaning "satire" in the modern sense of spoof. I was thinking along the lines .... Well, not quite as far as these...

Actor: Cary Elwes, ...
I see my mistake now. Let's treat this issue as a cul-de-sac, rather than a through road for further discussion.

We can only conjecture (make an educated guess) what the plaintiff had said, but it may well have been humorous, in an attempt to distract them from any feelings of pity that they may have had for the fellow.

This and the discussion of projectiles on the previous page is one of the major differences in approach that I noticed on studying Ancient Greek. There was so much background information given about the world of the text and its background. Bible college Greek was about finding truth from the text self-referentially. At University, history, archeology, philosophy, myth and other topics were presented as they were needed to understand the texts (and language).
Lysias 24.18 wrote:οὐδ᾽ ὑμᾶς πεῖσαι βουλόμενος ὡς εἰμὶ τοιοῦτος (= ὑβριστής referring to the disabled man),
ἀλλ᾽ ἐμὲ κωμῳδεῖν βουλόμενος, ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν (referring to the disabled man? or plaintif?).
Stephen Hughes wrote: And he is doing a good job - ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν - How did "ὥσπερ τι" become "and"? ὥσπερ is "like as if"
I was, and still am, unsure about the referent of ποιῶν. I understand what you are saying and am "almost persuaded," but I will attempt to expose the inner workings of my brain here. I need to figure out where I am wrong. Mainly, is there only one option here? If the answer to this question is an absolute yes, I definitely need to know where I am messing up. I understand it as a choice between, "as if I am doing something good," and "as if he is doing something good." Both of these dependent strongly on the satire idea I was asking about.[/quote]
I understand your question and have now found a parallelism in structure that I hadn't noticed before. I'll need to think about it. It is speeches like this that one has to work through to even begin to get a feeling for the meaning of the words in lists like;
Romans 1:28-32 wrote:Καὶ καθὼς οὐκ ἐδοκίμασαν τὸν θεὸν ἔχειν ἐν ἐπιγνώσει, παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς εἰς ἀδόκιμον νοῦν, ποιεῖν τὰ μὴ καθήκοντα, 29 πεπληρωμένους πάσῃ ἀδικίᾳ, πορνείᾳ, πονηρίᾳ, πλεονεξίᾳ κακίᾳ · μεστοὺς φθόνου, φόνου, ἔριδος, δόλου, κακοηθείας· ψιθυριστάς, 30 καταλάλους, θεοστυγεῖς, ὑβριστάς, ὑπερηφάνους, ἀλαζόνας, ἐφευρετὰς κακῶν, γονεῦσιν ἀπειθεῖς, 31 ἀσυνέτους, ἀσυνθέτους, ἀστόργους, ἀσπόνδους, ἀνελεήμονας· 32 οἵτινες τὸ δικαίωμα τοῦ θεοῦ ἐπιγνόντες , ὅτι οἱ τὰ τοιαῦτα πράσσοντες ἄξιοι θανάτου εἰσίν , οὐ μόνον αὐτὰ ποιοῦσιν , ἀλλὰ καὶ συνευδοκοῦσιν τοῖς πράσσουσιν .
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3332
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Lysias 24 - §26 - Feedback for Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 24th, 2014, 9:47 am

Lysias 24.26 wrote:μὴ τοίνυν, ὦ βουλή, μηδὲν ἡμαρτηκὼς ὁμοίων1 ὑμῶν τύχοιμι τοῖς πολλὰ ἠδικηκόσιν, ἀλλὰ τὴν αὐτὴν ψῆφον θέσθε περὶ ἐμοῦ ταῖς ἄλλαις βουλαῖς, ἀναμνησθέντες ὅτι οὔτε χρήματα διαχειρίσας τῆς πόλεως δίδωμι λόγον αὐτῶν, οὔτε ἀρχὴν ἄρξας οὐδεμίαν εὐθύνας ὑπέχω νῦν αὐτῆς, ἀλλὰ περὶ ὀβολοῦ μόνον ποιοῦμαι τοὺς λόγους.
Wes Wood wrote:And now, O Council, having done no wrong I do not wish to obtain the same things from you [that you gave] to others who have done many wrong things, but you will place the same pebble for me that the other councils did, remembering that I did not give an account before them about the goods which I administered on behalf of the city, neither did I hold any office nor am I making audits of an office now, but concerning an obol I am saying only these words.

I still don't feel like this has the phrase properly, but I believe it is the best I can do without looking for help.

Which phrase are you referring to? The tinkering one (οὔτε ἀρχὴν ἄρξας οὐδεμίαν εὐθύνας ὑπέχω νῦν αὐτῆς)?

Please use these points to tidy up your rendering.
ὁμοίων - You did take this as neuter plural for substantive, right?
θέσθε - are you thinking of θήσεσθε? or perhaps θησαῖσθε?
δίδωμι - did not give - tense (In English we usually "make" a speech)
μόνον - how have you rendered this?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
Posts: 676
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Lysias 24.26 feedback response

Post by Wes Wood » August 24th, 2014, 3:28 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: Which phrase are you referring to? The tinkering one (οὔτε ἀρχὴν ἄρξας οὐδεμίαν εὐθύνας ὑπέχω νῦν αὐτῆς)?
Σὺ λέγεις, and you are correct. Though, this does not mean that I believe myself immune to "strafing."
Stephen Hughes wrote: ὁμοίων - You did take this as neuter plural for substantive, right?
I am not confident that my rendering is correct. I had a hard time with this phrase. My initial reaction was that it was "from people like you." I envisioned this referring to either other councils (less likely) or a more reverential "from people such as yourselves." I could not make sense of the entire phrase (up to ἀλλὰ) without supplying extra words. When I supplied those words I simplified ὁμοίων to from you. I probably should have placed "the same things" in brackets. In my mind it is linked with "[that you gave]." Does this answer your question?
Stephen Hughes wrote: θέσθε - are you thinking of θήσεσθε? or perhaps θησαῖσθε?
Yes. θήσεσθε. I misread this.
Stephen Hughes wrote: δίδωμι - did not give - tense (In English we usually "make" a speech)
Do I understand you correctly? δίδωμι λόγον means here, "make a speech"? I was understanding it as "give an account of my activities." (Upon rereading the questions I asked in this section, I have decided they seem harsh. I want to clarify here: 1) I am not convinced I understand what you are meaning. 2) I am not intending to sound incredulous or mean spirited. I don't think you would take this the wrong way, but I do not wish to leave anyone else this impression.)
Stephen Hughes wrote: μόνον - how have you rendered this?
"I am making these words (making this speech/giving this defense) for no other reason than an obol." I am unsure what the correct grammatical terminology would be for this usage. The main thing I would like to convey is that I do not understand it as an adj. referring to the obol.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

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