Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Lysias 24.26 feedback response

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 24th, 2014, 10:15 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote: ὁμοίων - You did take this as neuter plural for substantive, right?
I am not confident that my rendering is correct. I had a hard time with this phrase. My initial reaction was that it was "from people like you." I envisioned this referring to either other councils (less likely) or a more reverential "from people such as yourselves." I could not make sense of the entire phrase (up to ἀλλὰ) without supplying extra words. When I supplied those words I simplified ὁμοίων to from you. I probably should have placed "the same things" in brackets. In my mind it is linked with "[that you gave]." Does this answer your question?
"From people like yourselves" would be something like ὁμοίων ὑμῖν. The adjective takes a dative of what is resembled. If your nemesis means "obtain" here, then supplying the "[which you gave]". In that case, it takes a genitive of the thing obtained + another genitive of the person from whom it was obtained. I see your "[that you gave]" as a resolution of the idea of the dative of advantage. Personally, I'm in two minds as to whether to take the dative with ὁμοίων in a badly constructed sense to differentiate it from the genitive ὑμῶν, but the sense of it is that the μηδὲν ἡμαρτηκὼς (himself presumably) is contrasted with τοῖς πολλὰ ἠδικηκόσιν (some others). Things don't follow the syntax I expect here. If the variant ὁμοίως is read as written, then it more or less "repeats" the sense of the verb, and can be used with the following dative. In this case I think you are edging towards preferring ὁμοίως.
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote: δίδωμι - did not give - tense (In English we usually "make" a speech)
Do I understand you correctly? δίδωμι λόγον means here, "make a speech"? I was understanding it as "give an account of my activities." (Upon rereading the questions I asked in this section, I have decided they seem harsh. I want to clarify here: 1) I am not convinced I understand what you are meaning. 2) I am not intending to sound incredulous or mean spirited. I don't think you would take this the wrong way, but I do not wish to leave anyone else this impression.)
I mean that the fellow is speaking at the time of his making the speech. You have inadvertently rendered this from our time perspective, though it is him speaking. Take λόγον in its widest possible range of senses then choose one.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 24th, 2014, 10:49 pm

If you were thinking narrative present, this is a speech not a narrative.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Lysias cont.

Post by Wes Wood » August 24th, 2014, 11:35 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote: I mean that the fellow is speaking at the time of his making the speech. You have inadvertently rendered this from our time perspective, though it is him speaking
I knew you had to be seeing something I was missing, and I am glad that you did. I did not catch this either time.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Lysias 24.26 feedback response - λόγος (δίδωμι λόγον)

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2014, 2:19 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote: δίδωμι - did not give - tense (In English we usually "make" a speech)
Do I understand you correctly? δίδωμι λόγον means here, "make a speech"? I was understanding it as "give an account of my activities." (Upon rereading the questions I asked in this section, I have decided they seem harsh. I want to clarify here: 1) I am not convinced I understand what you are meaning. 2) I am not intending to sound incredulous or mean spirited. I don't think you would take this the wrong way, but I do not wish to leave anyone else this impression.)
Take λόγον in its widest possible range of senses then choose one.
I think I disagree with myself about this now. Perhaps I agree with your "give account". I had initially shied away from that rendering because "give an account" is very similar to "recount", which is what I would sort of render from διηγέομαι. That meaning of show us your reckoning of the money, in my mind at least is more like ὑπόλογος than just plain λόγος.

Now I am warming to the idea that δίδωμι λόγον is not "Tell me about what you government did with the city's money (for the citizens' benefit) during your tenure" , but rather "We'd like to see the books to make sure no funds have been misappropriated / pocketed during your time in office"(answering the sort of questions that a royal commission or senate select committee might ask about an leader or public servant's spending).

And there is LSJ too
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Lysias §27 Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2014, 12:02 pm

Lysias 24.27 wrote:Lysias 24.27 wrote:καὶ οὕτως ὑμεῖς μὲν τὰ δίκαια γνώσεσθε πάντες, ἐγὼ δὲ τούτων ὑμῖν τυχὼν ἕξω τὴν χάριν, οὗτος δὲ τοῦ λοιποῦ μαθήσεται μὴ τοῖς ἀσθενεστέροις ἐπιβουλεύειν ἀλλὰ τῶν ὁμοίων αὐτῷ περιγίγνεσθαι.
Wes Wood wrote:"And so [sounds like "consequently", but it means "in this way"] you will [my hint for this form was unintelligent] indeed form a correct judgment about all these things, but I, receiving these things from you, will obtain favor [this means "will be grateful", doesn't it?], but this man will learn [be acquainted by practice / experience] as time passes [I take this as sc. τοῦ βίου "for the rest of his life"] not to plot [contrive schemes] against those who are weaker than he is but to overcome [I think this is referring to morals (surpass / excell) not t referring to future court cases, do you?] his equals. [= rise above the state /status of a trouble maker, be someone better than he and his mates, who go around picking on cripples]". I think that the word τῶν ὁμοίων αὐτῷ is a loaded back-hand swipe at that fellow's character.
Wes Wood wrote:I am unsure what is going on here with this phrase: τούτων ὑμῖν τυχὼν. Have I mentioned that I am no fan of any word that can be inflected to form this: τυχὼν?
Me neither. It now doesn't look so obvious as it did when I read it before. Give me a chance to reconsider my understanding of it.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2014, 12:19 pm

Congratulations Wes, you have read all the way through a classical Greek work. Lysias is traditionally considered to be suitable for intermediate students, but there is no reason that higher than intermediate students can not read his work too, and (with the benefit of their experience) get more out of the work than an intermediate student.

Throughout the history of getting a classical education, it has never been enough to simply understand a text. This speech and many others like it were considered exemplars for the student composing their own literature.

In this new moon, I hope that we can move forward into composition (at a very basic level) based on this text.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by cwconrad » August 25th, 2014, 12:37 pm

Lysias 24.26:
μὴ τοίνυν, ὦ βουλή, μηδὲν ἡμαρτηκὼς ὁμοίων ὑμῶν τύχοιμι τοῖς πολλὰ ἠδικηκόσιν, ἀλλὰ τὴν αὐτὴν ψῆφον θέσθε περὶ ἐμοῦ ταῖς ἄλλαις βουλαῖς, ἀναμνησθέντες ὅτι οὔτε χρήματα διαχειρίσας τῆς πόλεως δίδωμι λόγον αὐτῶν, οὔτε ἀρχὴν ἄρξας οὐδεμίαν εὐθύνας ὑπέχω νῦν αὐτῆς, ἀλλὰ περὶ ὀβολοῦ μόνον ποιοῦμαι τοὺς λόγους.
May I offer some suggestions here on matters that seem in question?

1. τυγχάνειν + genitive: encounter, meet with, come to acquire, receive: it’s what you get/receive when Fortune (Τυχή), on behalf of the Jury — or the Jury as Fortune — hands out as verdicts and awards (penalties)

The cripple is hoping that the Council won’t decide to give him the same thing(s) that it has given people guilty of much wrongdoing

2. ψῆφον τίθεσθαι: cast one’s ballot

3. τὴν αὐτὴν … ταῖς ἄλλαις βουλαῖς: the same as other Councils deciding the same issue (whether or not to give the same dole of an obol)

4. οὔτε … οὔτε: the cripple is not addressing the Council in the same manner as two other categories of “defendant”: (1) one offering an account of funds he has administered on behalf of the city, and (2) one undergoing an end-of-year impeachment standard for officeholders who must prove there’s been no malfeasance during his term of office. One underlying asssumption of Athenian democratic government is that officeholders cannot be assumed to be honest; when they leave office they need to prove that they haven't abused their powers for self-aggrandizement or cronyism or the like.

5. δίδωμι λόγον: offer an accounting — show the books and explain the balance; this is different from ποιεῖσθαι τοὺς λόγους, present one's case (to a jury or deliberative body).
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2014, 1:49 pm

Carl, if you'd like to comment on issues related to section 18, I would be indebted to your wisdom's kindness. Section 18 is, in my opinion, the most difficult if these 27 sections.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 25th, 2014, 2:19 pm

While all deficiencies, exaggerations and misconceptions that I have made in presenting this text are the result of own ignorance and inability, it should be noted that the original idea for this thread came from Carl Conrad, and l have benefited greatly from his tireless attention to replying to my enquiries in PMs so far as my inability has been graced with self-awareness.

While in my case, composing this thread is my first exposure to this particular speech of Lysias (#24), it should be recognised that CC first read this text 60 years ago under the guidance of knoweldeable and experienced instructors. Furthermore, it is proper to note that I was a mediocre pass-level student while in my undergraduate years, while CC not only excelled at his studies, but was also able to go further with them and to attain more understanding and ability during his post-graduate years and subsequent teaching carreer.

In my opinion, there are various others on this forum more able than myself to have undertaken this task. While fortune may or may not favour the bold, it should be remembered that the bold are not always the most able. In my case, "rashness" and "insensibility" may be more apt descriptions for my undertaking in this thread, rather than pushing the meaning of "boldness" to its limits of its sensibility.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: Lysias 24 - §18 - Text and Hints

Post by cwconrad » August 25th, 2014, 3:08 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Section 18 is a bit more contorted in its thinking.
Lysias 24.18 wrote:καὶ τοῖς μὲν ἰσχυροῖς ἐγχωρεῖ μηδὲν αὐτοῖς πάσχουσιν, οὓς ἂν βουληθῶσιν, ὑβρίζειν, τοῖς δὲ ἀσθενέσιν οὐκ ἔστιν οὔτε ὑβριζομένοις ἀμύνεσθαι τοὺς ὑπάρξαντας οὔτε ὑβρίζειν βουλομένοις περιγίγνεσθαι τῶν ἀδικουμένων. ὥστε μοι δοκεῖ ὁ κατήγορος εἰπεῖν περὶ τῆς ἐμῆς ὕβρεως οὐ σπουδάζων, ἀλλὰ παίζων, οὐδ᾽ ὑμᾶς πεῖσαι βουλόμενος ὡς εἰμὶ τοιοῦτος, ἀλλ᾽ ἐμὲ κωμῳδεῖν βουλόμενος, ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν.
.


Hints for §18: (Here are a few things that I guess might be useful for me to mention to help you get the most out of this reading.)
  • τοῖς ... ἰσχυροῖς ... πάσχουσιν - these three datives go together with ἐγχωρεῖ
  • μηδὲν αὐτοῖς - dative of respect
  • ἐγχωρεῖ ... ὑβρίζειν - ἐγχωρεῖ (+inf.)
  • οὓς - for αὐτοὺς οὓς
  • τοῖς ... ἀσθενέσιν ... ὑβριζομένοις - the datives go together.
  • ἀμύνεσθαι - to ward (off)
  • οὐ σπουδάζων - in a way that he doesn't seem to be serious
  • κωμῳδεῖν - something like "to lampoon", "describe a character in a skit"
[/size]
First of all, let me say that I think everything Stephen has offered as a hint is on target. What makes this passage complicated is that, for all its powerful rhetorical arrangement, it has a strong colloquial ring to it. In a certain sense the "cripple" is making fun of his accuser in the very way that he accuses his accuser of making fun of him. This is a sort of rhetorical tour de force.

Here's my take on this snippet:

1. Note the contrast between τοῖς μὲν ἰσχυροῖς ἐγχωρεῖ and τοῖς δὲ ἀσθενέσιν οὐκ ἔστιν; it tells us what able-bodied people can readily do and what crippled people don’t have the opportunity or ability to do.

2. What can the able-bodied do? ἐγχωρεῖ (αὐτοῖς), μηδὲν αὐτοῖς πάσχουσιν (with impunity!), (ἐκείνους) οὓς ἂν βουληθῶσιν (ὑβρίζειν), ὑβρίζειν.

3. What are cripples NOT enabled to do? οὐκ ἔστιν (αὐτοῖς)
(1) οὔτε ὑβριζομένοις ἀμύνεσθαι τοὺς ὑπάρξαντας
—ἀμύνεσθαι: ward off; defend oneself against
—τοὺς ὑπάρξαντας: the ones who started (roughhousing)
(2) οὔτε ὑβρίζειν βουλομένοις περιγίγνεσθαι τῶν ἀδικουμένων
—ὑβρίζειν βουλομένοις = ἐὰν ὑβρίζειν βούλωνται
—περιγίγνεσθαι: survive, come out better off (than)
—τῶν ἀδικουμένων (gen. of comparison) = ἐκείνων οὒς ἠδίκησαν αὐτοί

4. ὥστε μοι δοκεῖ ὁ κατήγορος = “So I think my accuser …”
—εἰπεῖν περὶ τῆς ἐμῆς ὕβρεως “speaks of my violence”
—οὐ σπουδάζων, ἀλλὰ παίζων: “not seriously, but in jest …”
—οὐδ᾽ ὑμᾶς πεῖσαι βουλόμενος … ἀλλ᾽ ἐμὲ κωμῳδεῖν βουλόμενος: “not meaning to make you believe him … but intending to mock”
—ὡς εἰμὶ τοιοῦτος: that I (really) am that sort (a ruffian)
—ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν = ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ ἐποίει καλόν τι: “just as if he were doing something ‘cool’ (when it’s obvious that he isn’t!)
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

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