Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

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Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

§15 - Lysias' On behalf of the invalid

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Let's resume our reading again now after this brief hiatus. I hope that you did nothing but read, re-read the text so far, memorise words forms and phrases, but I also think it prudent to work from the basis that not only was the text not looked over the past fortnight, but also that all that we discussed previously had only the slightest of chances to fleetingly follow the intracranial paths and that tides rising and falling while the moon waxed from full to only the slightest crescent have long since washed away any traces of the sandcastle that we hastily built before these long hot days of summer began to keep us in our glass-windowed caves and under our veranda-encircled logs for all but the earliest of morning coolness and the latest of evening of evening respite.

Section 15 has Lysias defending his client (or himself) against the character assassination of the plaintiff. The reading is straightforward, but let's take it slow and steady while we get back up to speed.
Lysias 24.15 wrote:λέγει δ᾽ ὡς ὑβριστής εἰμι καὶ βίαιος καὶ λίαν ἀσελγῶς διακείμενος, ὥσπερ εἰ φοβερῶς ὀνομάσειε, μέλλων ἀληθῆ λέγειν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ, ἐὰν πάνυ πραόνως μηδὲ ψεύδηται,¹ ταῦτα ποιήσων. ἐγὼ δ᾽ ὑμᾶς, ὦ βουλή, σαφῶς οἶμαι δεῖν διαγιγνώσκειν οἷς τ᾽ ἐγχωρεῖ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὑβρισταῖς εἶναι καὶ οἷς οὐ προσήκει.

1 μηδὲ ψεύδηται del. Kayser.
.

Hints for §15: (Here are a few things that you might not be familiar with.)
  • διακείμενος - Being of a certain disposition. This is the meaning "V. metaph., of continuing conditions" of κεῖμαι with the addition of the preposition. When thinking about how words derive from each other it is not enough to consider how one word in the dictionary relates to another. The particular meaning or sense relates to another particular meaning or sense of the word with a preposition prefixed. The difference between being described as ἀσελγῶς διακείμενος or simply as ἀσελγής (the word ἀσέλγεια is common enough in the New Testament), would mean that his whole disposition is towards wantonness, not just the occasional excess.
  • ὀνομάσειε - third singular aorist optative active of ὀνομάζειν "IV. utter names or words"
  • πραόνως - temperately [described by LSJ as being derived from πραόνους (a ghost word)].
  • ψεύδηται - subjunctive not nominative.
  • διαγιγνώσκειν - the extra gamma is typical of the LXX and earlier. As we see in Acts 23:15 ὡς μέλλοντας διαγινώσκειν ἀκριβέστερον τὰ περὶ αὐτοῦ· "as though you were going to judge his case more exactly" that it is a legal word, which is suitable for this situation [also note that the object is in the accusative].
  • οἷς ... καὶ οἷς ... - These two are dative to go with ἐγχωρεῖ and προσήκει. The verb διαγιγνώσκειν takes an accusative. For that reason οἷς stands for "αὐτοὺς οἷς" which is common enough.
  • ἐγχωρεῖ - impers. there is time, it is possible or allowable c. dat. pers. et inf..
  • προσήκει - impersonal, it belongs to, concerns.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

§16 - Lysias (24) On the refusal of a pension

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Section 16 continues the line of section 15, pointing out the circumstances of the speaker's life.

The vocabulary is quite straightforward, and it consists of a few of parallel sentences, suggesting that Lysias wanted the audience to take notice of his points here rather than be impressed by his style.
Lysias 24.16 wrote: οὐ γὰρ τοὺς¹ πενομένους καὶ λίαν ἀπόρως διακειμένους ὑβρίζειν εἰκός, ἀλλὰ τοὺς πολλῷ πλείω τῶν ἀναγκαίων κεκτημένους: οὐδὲ τοὺς ἀδυνάτους τοῖς σώμασιν ὄντας, ἀλλὰ τοὺς μάλιστα πιστεύοντας ταῖς αὑτῶν ῥώμαις: οὐδὲ τοὺς ἤδη προβεβηκότας τῇ ἡλικίᾳ, ἀλλὰ τοὺς ἔτι νέους καὶ νέαις ταῖς διανοίαις χρωμένους.

¹τοὺς add. Reiske.
.

Hints for §16: (Here is the one thing that I guess you might not be familiar with.)
  • εἰκός - likely, probable, reasonable, εἰ. (with or without ἐστί), c. inf. pres., aor., or fut., .
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

§17 - Lysias (24) On the refusal of a pension to the invalid

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Section 17 is relatively short and straightforward.
Lysias On the refusal of a pension to an invalid, 24.17 wrote:οἱ μὲν γὰρ πλούσιοι τοῖς χρήμασιν ἐξωνοῦνται τοὺς κινδύνους, οἱ δὲ πένητες ὑπὸ τῆς παρούσης ἀπορίας σωφρονεῖν ἀναγκάζονται: καὶ οἱ μὲν νέοι συγγνώμης ἀξιοῦνται τυγχάνειν παρὰ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων, τοῖς δὲ πρεσβυτέροις¹ ἐξαμαρτάνουσιν ὁμοίως ἐπιτιμῶσιν ἀμφότεροι.

¹πρεσβυτέροις Frohberger: ἑτέροις MSS.
Hints for §17: (Here are a few things that I guess might be useful for me to mention to help you get the most out of this reading.)
  • ἐξωνοῦνται - buy off, redeem, c. gen. vel dat. pretii.
  • συγγνώμης ἀξιοῦνται - Mid./pass. they are thought worthy of something.
  • συγγνώμης - This word συγγνώμη is the sort of "natural" forgiveness which comes by putting up with things, bearing with them, rather than the cleansing of sin that the New Testament speaks of. Cf. 1 Corinthinas 6:7 Τοῦτο δὲ λέγω κατὰ συγγνώμην (as a concession), οὐ κατ’ ἐπιταγήν (not as a commandment). By rights this συγγνώμης should be used twice (both ἀξιοῦνται and τυγχάνειν take the genitive).
  • τυγχάνειν - to meet with (+gen of a circumstance) (by lot or destiny)
  • παρὰ (+gen. person) - the preposition marks the person from whom one gets something (with a passive verb)
  • τοῖς ... πρεσβυτέροις - don't let your mind skip you over the significance of the case here. At least understand why it is dative.
  • ἐξαμαρτάνουσιν - they err, do wrong
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

§15 - Lysias' On behalf of the invalid

Post by Wes Wood »

For me, this was the hardest one to date. I have spent more than two hours on this text :oops: and still feel like it is terrible. I am aware that I have taken liberties with the tenses of many of the verbs. I am confident I know what all of the parsings are. I even recognized the optative! The problem is that I am not sure which parts should fit together. If I had not looked at the hint for ὀνομάσειε I would have translated this section entirely differently because I used the meaning that is most familiar to me. At this point, I am most concerned with whether or not I have captured a glimpse of what is going on. Feedback addressing this first would be most helpful at this point.

In the section preceding the bold phrase, I struggled with which lexical domain fit best for several somewhat similar words. In the bold section, I attempted to express what I perceive the meaning to be. I have already indicated some areas of concern. On the third section, I mostly struggled with how best to relate the verbs with their subjects. Having said all this...

"But he speaks as though I am an insolent and forceful and exceedingly brutal man. As if he is fearful that he will speak and not lie. He is about to tell the truth, but he will not [lie] if he makes these [accusations] altogether temperately. But I think it is necessary for you, O Council, to clearly judge which men are permitted to be insolent from those for whom it is unfitting."

As though my Greek isn't bad enough. I have no excuse for my English. :lol:
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Initial feedback - Wes Wood - §15

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Lysias 24.15 wrote:λέγει δ᾽ ὡς ὑβριστής εἰμι καὶ βίαιος καὶ λίαν ἀσελγῶς διακείμενος, ὥσπερ εἰ φοβερῶς ὀνομάσειε, μέλλων ἀληθῆ λέγειν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ, ἐὰν πάνυ πραόνως μηδὲ ψεύδηται,¹ ταῦτα ποιήσων. ἐγὼ δ᾽ ὑμᾶς, ὦ βουλή, σαφῶς οἶμαι δεῖν διαγιγνώσκειν οἷς τ᾽ ἐγχωρεῖ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὑβρισταῖς εἶναι καὶ οἷς οὐ προσήκει.
Wes Wood wrote:But he speaks as though I am an insolent and forceful and exceedingly brutal man. As if he is fearful that he will speak and not lie. He is about to tell the truth, but he will not [lie] if he makes these [accusations] altogether temperately. But I think it is necessary for you, O Council, to clearly judge which men are permitted to be insolent from those for whom it is unfitting."
When "insolence" is expressed in society (from one to another), it becomes an "injury" to another. This is how we have it in the New Testament. Cf. 2 Corinthians 12:10 Διὸ εὐδοκῶ ἐν ἀσθενείαις, ἐν ὕβρεσιν, ἐν ἀνάγκαις, ἐν διωγμοῖς, ἐν στενοχωρίαις, ὑπὲρ χριστοῦ· ὅταν γὰρ ἀσθενῶ, τότε δυνατός εἰμι. Where I think the nuance is that the injury comes from the action of others "insolent persons have harmed me". Perhaps more than an "insolent man", it could be taken as "a man that causes injury to others". When the Apostle said (Acts 27:21) Ἔδει μέν, ὦ ἄνδρες, πειθαρχήσαντάς μοι μὴ ἀνάγεσθαι ἀπὸ τῆς Κρήτης, κερδῆσαί τε τὴν ὕβριν ταύτην καὶ τὴν ζημίαν. Gentlemen, if you had listened to me ... we wouldn't have suffered this injury (loss)." he was mildly rebuking them for their insolence to sail in the face of the natural forces which men should realise can not be tackled with only such a small vessel of limited sea-worthiness.

When "force" finds itself directed from one man to another, it becomes more than force, but also a harmful effect on the other; "violence".

"Brutal", begins with a disposition; an unfeelingness, a lack of empathy for one person towards their fellow person, "brutishness", or the like

I think in these three descriptions you are on the right track, but you have got the directions / positions of emphasis (within the person or in the person's interactions with others) wrong.
As if he is fearful that he will speak and not lie. He is about to tell the truth, but he will not [lie] if he makes these [accusations] altogether temperately.
This section has been rendered very creatively. :mrgreen: Perhaps it needs a less subtle type of help. It is something like, "Perhaps he thinks one needs to use strong language to tell the truth, and mild words if one wants to lie". You could try that section again based on that.

φοβερῶς could be translated "in a fearsome / terrifying manner", "so as to scaremonger". You have this adv. around the wrong way, like "I'm bored" vs. "I'm boring".

The last section is fine.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Wes Wood §16 - Lysias (24) On the refusal of a pension

Post by Wes Wood »

This one helps me feel better about yesterday. I am confident I understand this one. I took a few liberties, but don't think I did great harm to the text. I will now try to focus on the feedback from yesterday. It may take me until tomorrow to do so. I need to work through the text slowly so that I make sure I understand the syntax in the middle section. Right now I am still :?, but your advice about the adverb cleared up many things. That thought did not even cross my mind last night.


"For it is not likely that the day laborers and those who are in a state of great poverty grow increasingly licentious, but the ones who have required more [than] the necessities: neither the ones who are physically disabled, but the ones who trust in their physical strength: nor the ones who are already advanced in age, but the ones who are still young and have youthful minds."
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Wes Wood §17 - Lysias (24) On the refusal of a pension

Post by Wes Wood »

I will post all corrections up to this point this evening. I had a spare moment, so I will go ahead and do this section now. I have a few quick questions in my hasty translation.

"For, indeed, the wealthy are buying (off?) the danger with their money, but the day-laborers because they are poor [literally something like: by the presence of poverty?] are forced to exercise self-control: and young people are worthy to obtain lenient judgment from the elders, but they [the people who decide the case?] do wrong to the older people in the same way (I am not sure exactly how to understand this. Is it something like “the elderly who are guilty of the same offenses as the young” or is it talking about the rest of the elderly people who are not guilty of the offenses of the aforementioned elderly people?) when they punish both."

Thanks!
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Lysias 24 - Feedback §16 Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Lysias 24.16 wrote:οὐ γὰρ τοὺς¹ πενομένους καὶ λίαν ἀπόρως διακειμένους ὑβρίζειν εἰκός, ἀλλὰ τοὺς πολλῷ πλείω τῶν ἀναγκαίων κεκτημένους: οὐδὲ τοὺς ἀδυνάτους τοῖς σώμασιν ὄντας, ἀλλὰ τοὺς μάλιστα πιστεύοντας ταῖς αὑτῶν ῥώμαις: οὐδὲ τοὺς ἤδη προβεβηκότας τῇ ἡλικίᾳ, ἀλλὰ τοὺς ἔτι νέους καὶ νέαις ταῖς διανοίαις χρωμένους.
You have not captured the pervasiveness of εἰκός.
Wes Wood Lysias 24:16 wrote:For it is not likely that the day laborers (those who rely on working every day for their livelihood, i.e. the working-poor) and those who are in a state of great poverty will be the ones who grow increasingly licentious, but rather it is likely that the ones who have required acquired more [than] the necessities: neither is it likely that the ones those who are physically disabled, but the ones who indeed trust in their physical strength: nor is it likely that the ones those who are already advanced in age do, but rather it is likely to be the ones who are still young and have youthful minds use youthful ways of thinking that do.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Initial feedback - Wes Wood - §15

Post by Wes Wood »

Lysias 15A
“But he says that I am prone to be an insolent, violent, and exceedingly licentious man, as if he must be telling the truth when he utters terrifying words. But he is not telling the truth and certainly would not lie if he made these [accusations] temperately.”...

Thank you for pointing out the scope of those ranges. I have mentioned struggling with the strings of descriptors especially those that are found in the Biblical writings attributed, in varying degrees, to Paul. After looking at it in more depth, I believe this is what I would have come up with on my own. (Obviously, I can't know this for certain, so cut me some slack! :lol: ) Does the last term "ἀσελγῶς" have a sexual component or is that a connotation that I attach to a few of the definitions?
Stephen Hughes wrote:This section has been rendered very creatively. :mrgreen: Perhaps it needs a less subtle type of help.


I have no reputation to protect. I have no problem admitting that initially I could do little with this section with help or without it. Sadly, this was the best I could do with help. :cry:

BUT...

I tried to allow enough time to pass to forget the passage and review the words and grammar. That way I could attempt it again and save some face. See, I wasn't stalling. I am simply counting my chickens before they hatch. I hope I at least went from :shock: to :| .
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Lysias 24 - Re: Initial feedback - Wes Wood - §15

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:I ... struggl[e]... with the strings of descriptors especially those that are found in the Biblical writings ...
When you (we) read those lists, we pushing the cart up-hill, because we are trying to understand a concept and its context simply from a word. We are not being reminded of it by the word. The same words would not be so difficult to understand if they arose in an extended discussion. In a list, however, we need to think quickly (even superficially) about something familiar and then move on to the next one. The way I have been dealing with that problem is to background read about them (conceptually in English) until they are at least a little familiar, and then come to the text for quick reading (in Greek).
Wes Wood wrote:Does the last term "ἀσελγῶς" have a sexual component or is that a connotation that I attach to a few of the definitions?
This is a speech given in a case about money, and living a wasteful life, or one beyond his supposed social status or means. No actual "facts and figures" are being brought up, but rather just some seemingly expensive things that he is doing in his life. It is possible, perhaps that the συνεῖναι in ὅτι δύναμαι συνεῖναι δυναμένοις ἀνθρώποις ἀναλίσκειν of section 5 could connotate sexual as well as social intercourse, but - being referred to by συνεῖναι (a generally positive word) - it would be within the bounds of (then) socially acceptable usage.

Perhaps you are thinking of the possible range of meanings of "licentiously" or "wantonly" and wondered whether it would be suitable to apply that "unrestrainedly-ness" in a sexual sense here?

If that is your question, then; I don't think so. To my mind, ἀσελγής is a word that seems to take its focus of meaning from the context, rather than carrying one itself. In this case the context is spending money.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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