Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
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Stephen Hughes
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Lysias 24 - §18 - Text and Hints

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 1st, 2014, 1:16 am

Section 18 is a bit more contorted in its thinking.
Lysias 24.18 wrote:καὶ τοῖς μὲν ἰσχυροῖς ἐγχωρεῖ μηδὲν αὐτοῖς πάσχουσιν, οὓς ἂν βουληθῶσιν, ὑβρίζειν, τοῖς δὲ ἀσθενέσιν οὐκ ἔστιν οὔτε ὑβριζομένοις ἀμύνεσθαι τοὺς ὑπάρξαντας οὔτε ὑβρίζειν βουλομένοις περιγίγνεσθαι τῶν ἀδικουμένων. ὥστε μοι δοκεῖ ὁ κατήγορος εἰπεῖν περὶ τῆς ἐμῆς ὕβρεως οὐ σπουδάζων, ἀλλὰ παίζων, οὐδ᾽ ὑμᾶς πεῖσαι βουλόμενος ὡς εἰμὶ τοιοῦτος, ἀλλ᾽ ἐμὲ κωμῳδεῖν βουλόμενος, ὥσπερ τι καλὸν ποιῶν.
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Hints for §18: (Here are a few things that I guess might be useful for me to mention to help you get the most out of this reading.)
  • τοῖς ... ἰσχυροῖς ... πάσχουσιν - these three datives go together with ἐγχωρεῖ
  • μηδὲν αὐτοῖς - dative of respect
  • ἐγχωρεῖ ... ὑβρίζειν - ἐγχωρεῖ (+inf.)
  • οὓς - for αὐτοὺς οὓς
  • τοῖς ... ἀσθενέσιν ... ὑβριζομένοις - the datives go together.
  • ἀμύνεσθαι - to ward (off)
  • οὐ σπουδάζων - in a way that he doesn't seem to be serious
  • κωμῳδεῖν - something like "to lampoon", "describe a character in a skit"
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Lysias 24 - §19 - Text and hints

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 2nd, 2014, 9:26 am

Section 19 has the speaker talking in generalisations so as to draw attention from himself.
Lysias 24.19 wrote:ἔτι δὲ καὶ συλλέγεσθαί φησιν ἀνθρώπους ὡς ἐμὲ πονηροὺς καὶ πολλούς, οἳ τὰ μὲν ἑαυτῶν ἀνηλώκασι, τοῖς δὲ τὰ σφέτερα σῴζειν βουλομένοις ἐπιβουλεύουσιν. ὑμεῖς δὲ ἐνθυμήθητε πάντες ὅτι ταῦτα λέγων οὐδὲν ἐμοῦ κατηγορεῖ μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν ἄλλων ὅσοι τέχνας ἔχουσιν οὐδὲ τῶν ὡς ἐμὲ εἰσιόντων μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν ὡς τοὺς ἄλλους δημιουργούς.
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Hints for §19: (The hints for this section actually does contain what I would consider to be a hint)
  • συλλέγεσθαί - this is not the literal "gather up" that you are used to, it is another non-New Testament sense of the word; Here it is used intransitively of persons, who "get together"
  • ὡς ἐμὲ - at my place
  • τὰ σφέτερα - This is another adjectival personal pronoun, like ἡμέτερος, but this one is the adjectival form of σφεῖς "they, themselves", referring in this case to the τοῖς ... βουλομένοις (+inf.)
  • ἐνθυμήθητε - you ought to ponder
  • ἐμοῦ ... μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν ἄλλων - why are these both in the genitive?
  • δημιουργούς - craftsman
[/size]
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Lysias §18 - Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood » August 2nd, 2014, 8:03 pm

I feel good about this one. I have a few minor questions and clarifications imbedded in the translation.

"And to the ones who are strong nothing is permissible to those who are receiving benefits, but they [, themselves,] may commit outrage against whomever they wish. But to the ones who are weak it is not [permissible] neither to defend themselves from the injuries they have incurred nor to be insolent to the ones who wish to prevail against the ones who have been wronged [either themselves or others?]. Therefore it seems to me, [my] accuser is not speaking earnestly about my offenses, but he is joking. And he is not wanting to persuade you that I am like this, but he is wanting to satirize [is this the correct sense?] me. And he is doing a good job."
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Lysias §19 - Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood » August 2nd, 2014, 11:13 pm

I had believed my initial translation to be as close to correct as I have the ability to make it, but two of the hints proved me wrong. Thank you for these especially: "ἐνθυμήθητε - you ought to ponder" and "ὡς ἐμὲ - at my place." For the former I took a different meaning "you have concluded." I don't think I was familiar with this meaning for the latter phrase at all. I initially took it as a comparative. Even considering the mistakes I am making (and those I find out I have made), I think that I have made noticeable improvements.

"But yet he says many worthless men come together at my place, the ones who indeed who have used up their own things, but who are plotting against the ones who want to save their own things. But you all have concluded that these things he is saying prove nothing more against me than [that against] the others who have trades nor [against] the ones who have entered my place more than the ones who are like the other craftsmen."
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Lysias 24 - Feedback §19 - Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 3rd, 2014, 1:03 am

Permit me to break sequence and do the (from my point of view) easier one first.
Wes Wood wrote:I had believed my initial translation to be as close to correct as I have the ability to make it, but two of the hints proved me wrong. Thank you for these especially: "ἐνθυμήθητε - you ought to ponder" and "ὡς ἐμὲ - at my place." For the former I took a different meaning "you have concluded." I don't think I was familiar with this meaning for the latter phrase at all. I initially took it as a comparative. Even considering the mistakes I am making (and those I find out I have made), I think that I have made noticeable improvements.
Lysias 24.19 wrote:ἔτι δὲ καὶ συλλέγεσθαί φησιν ἀνθρώπους ὡς ἐμὲ πονηροὺς καὶ πολλούς, οἳ τὰ μὲν ἑαυτῶν ἀνηλώκασι, τοῖς δὲ τὰ σφέτερα σῴζειν βουλομένοις ἐπιβουλεύουσιν. ὑμεῖς δὲ ἐνθυμήθητε πάντες ὅτι ταῦτα λέγων οὐδὲν ἐμοῦ κατηγορεῖ μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν ἄλλων ὅσοι τέχνας ἔχουσιν οὐδὲ τῶν ὡς ἐμὲ εἰσιόντων μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν ὡς τοὺς ἄλλους δημιουργούς.
Wes Wood wrote:"But yet he says many worthless men come together at my place, the ones who indeed who have used up their own things, but who are plotting against the ones who want to save their own things. But you all have concluded that these things he is saying prove nothing more against me than [that against] the others who have trades nor [against] the ones who have entered my place more than the ones who are like the other craftsmen."
Very good. (τοὺς ἄλλους (here) = similar to myself)
Wes Wood wrote:Thank you for these especially: "ἐνθυμήθητε - you ought to ponder" ... For the former I took a different meaning "you have concluded."
Natthew 1:20 wrote:Ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος, ἰδού, ἄγγελος κυρίου κατ’ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ, λέγων, Ἰωσήφ, υἱὸς Δαυίδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαριὰμ τὴν γυναῖκά σου· τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου.
Joseph needed to make a very important (life-changing) decision at the end of his thinking.

cf. Luke 2:19 which has a similar meaning in context that does not require a decision to be made at the end of it.
Luke 2:19 wrote:Ἡ δὲ Μαριὰμ πάντα συνετήρει τὰ ῥήματα ταῦτα, συμβάλλουσα ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτῆς.
His mother, just kept those words in mind and thought about them to try to understand them better.

[Both ἐνθυμεῖσθαι and συμβαλεῖν can be translated "ponder", "think about"]
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Lysias 24 - §20 - Text and hints

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 3rd, 2014, 4:47 am

Today, it is my turn to have a free afternoon. Hopefully, then, I can give you a little better quality in this post than the mediocrity my usual rushed postings seem to abound in.
Lysias 24.20 wrote:ἕκαστος γὰρ ὑμῶν εἴθισται προσφοιτᾶν ὁ μὲν πρὸς μυροπώλιον, ὁ δὲ πρὸς κουρεῖον, ὁ δὲ πρὸς σκυτοτομεῖον, ὁ δ᾽ ὅποι ἂν τύχῃ, καὶ πλεῖστοι μὲν ὡς τοὺς ἐγγυτάτω τῆς ἀγορᾶς κατεσκευασμένους, ἐλάχιστοι δὲ ὡς τοὺς πλεῖστον ἀπέχοντας αὐτῆς: ὥστ᾽ εἴ τις ὑμῶν πονηρίαν καταγνώσεται τῶν ὡς ἐμὲ εἰσιόντων, δῆλον ὅτι καὶ τῶν παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις διατριβόντων: εἰ δὲ κἀκείνων, ἁπάντων Ἀθηναίων: ἅπαντες γὰρ εἴθισθε προσφοιτᾶν καὶ διατρίβειν ἁμοῦ¹ γέ που.

¹ἁμοῦ Bekker: ἄλλου MSS.
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Hints for §20: (Don't be put off by your first feelings of foreignness here - it is not as bad as it seems.)
  • εἴθισται - (perfect form) to be or become accustomed or used to do, c. inf. cf. Luke 2:27 Καὶ ἦλθεν ἐν τῷ πνεύματι εἰς τὸ ἱερόν· καὶ ἐν τῷ εἰσαγαγεῖν τοὺς γονεῖς τὸ παιδίον Ἰησοῦν, τοῦ ποιῆσαι αὐτοὺς κατὰ τὸ εἰθισμένον τοῦ νόμου περὶ αὐτοῦ,
  • μυροπώλιον, κουρεῖον, σκυτοτομεῖον - names of shops / stalls. For μυροπώλιον cf. Luke 7:46 Ἐλαίῳ τὴν κεφαλήν μου οὐκ ἤλειψας· αὕτη δὲ μύρῳ ἤλειψέν μου τοὺς πόδας. For κουρεῖον cf. Acts 18:18 κειράμενος τὴν κεφαλὴν ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς· εἶχεν γὰρ εὐχήν. and 1 Corinthians 11:6 Εἰ γὰρ οὐ κατακαλύπτεται γυνή, καὶ κειράσθω· εἰ δὲ αἰσχρὸν γυναικὶ τὸ κείρασθαι ἢ ξυρᾶσθαι [the second is a lot shorter; off right to the skin], κατακαλυπτέσθω. A σκῦτος is like an ἱμάς, which I suppose you are familiar with, and σκυτοτομία is shoe-making. cf. perhaps Mark 1:7 οὗ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἱκανὸς κύψας λῦσαι τὸν ἱμάντα τῶν ὑποδημάτων αὐτοῦ where the meanings are similar.
  • προσφοιτᾶν - go or come to frequently, resort to; visit. Perhaps the closest meaning in the New Testament is like the διέρχεσθαι of Mark 12:43 (and similar verses) Ὅταν δὲ τὸ ἀκάθαρτον πνεῦμα ἐξέλθῃ ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, διέρχεται δι’ ἀνύδρων τόπων, ζητοῦν ἀνάπαυσιν, καὶ οὐχ εὑρίσκει. "it hangs about (hangs out) in the waterless places (not really intending to stay there forever / settle down)" or perhaps Mark 4:35 Καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ, ὀψίας γενομένης, Διέλθωμεν εἰς τὸ πέραν. "Let's go hang out on the other side." [To save BH, SC or MA telling you,let me myself say; In giving this meaning for this verse, I am disagreeing with BDAG 1.b.β. You could compare my comment on εἰς with a verb of motion describing what happens at the end of the motion in another thread] or perhaps Luke 9:6 Ἐξερχόμενοι δὲ διήρχοντο κατὰ τὰς κώμας, εὐαγγελιζόμενοι καὶ θεραπεύοντες πανταχοῦ. "hung out in the villages".
  • αὐτῆς - τῆς ἀγορᾶς αὐτῆς
  • καταγνώσεται - come to know after consideration with reference to an external standard - condemn. cf. 1 John 3:21 Ἀγαπητοί, ἐὰν ἡ καρδία ἡμῶν μὴ καταγινώσκῃ ἡμῶν, παρρησίαν ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεόν,
  • καὶ - also
  • διατρίβειν - this verb more looks at the time spent, while προσφοιτᾶν expresses the frequency.
  • ἁμός = ἡμέτερος
  • γέ που - particles of emphasis
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Sorry for the confusion.

Post by Wes Wood » August 3rd, 2014, 7:33 am

I made a mistake in my previous post. I copied the translation with "you have concluded" rather than the corrected one. :oops: That is why it seems strange that I am thanking you for a hint I did not use. Thank you additionally for the NT citations. My slip of the cursor brought me even more good things. Also, don't feel the need to rush. I understand if you are busy. I still am amazed that you have time to do what you are doing!
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Lysias 24 - Re: Sorry for the confusion.

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 3rd, 2014, 11:16 pm

Wes Wood wrote:I made a mistake in my previous post. I copied the translation with "you have concluded" rather than the corrected one. :oops: That is why it seems strange that I am thanking you for a hint I did not use. Thank you additionally for the NT citations. My slip of the cursor brought me even more good things.
They are sort of the same. Concluded is what happens at the end of thinking. For ἐνθυμεῖσθαι a conclusion would, perhaps be a plan of action, for συμβαλεῖν a conclusion would, perhaps be an understanding (in terms of previous knowledge).
Wes Wood wrote:Also, don't feel the need to rush. I understand if you are busy. I still am amazed that you have time to do what you are doing!
Looking today at what I spent my time to write languidly yesterday afternoon, it seems to be waffle. It rambles on and lacks structure, and is not really even close to the text at hand.

My life's mundane enough. I'm not so good at measuring things, but I'd say we are somewhere on the final rod of the chain now.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Lysias §20 - Wes Wood

Post by Wes Wood » August 3rd, 2014, 11:50 pm

I did my best to make what I was thinking clear. I don't feel great about this one, but I don't feel terrible about it either. This should help you determine how far off I am.

"For each of you is accustomed to frequenting the perfumer’s shop, or the barber’s shop, or the shoemaker’s shop, or to whatever place you happen to be near, and indeed it seems most [frequent] the ones that have been built near the marketplace, but fewer seem [to frequent] the ones farther away from it: therefore, if one of you will lay a charge [of] wickedness against those who enter my business, it is clear that [you should] also [lay charge against] the ones who are wasting time with other [shopkeepers?]: but if that is the case, [they should lay charge] against all of the Athenians: for all of them have become accustomed to frequent and to waste time somewhere or other."
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Stephen Hughes
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Lysias 24 - Feedback §20 - Wes Wood

Post by Stephen Hughes » August 4th, 2014, 6:43 am

Wes Wood wrote:I don't feel great about this one, but I don't feel terrible about it either.
I've never found much correlation between how I felt about things and what grade I might get at the end.

I don't have a great interest in perfume use, but I saw from an in-flight documentary that perfumes are based on alcohol, not oils. I know of people who use fragrant oils in their homes with various ideas about the effects. I'm not saying that taking μυροπώλιον as "perfumer’s shop" is wrong, but I neither can I confirm with you that it is right either.

I'm not sure whether you understood the structure of the first section (ἕκαστος ... ἂν τύχῃ) with its "ὁ μὲν ... ὁ δὲ ... ὁ δὲ ... ὁ δ᾽" structure, and then made it into "idiomatic" English by omitting the structure, or whether you just missed it.

ὅποι ἂν + subjunctive "to whatsoever place one might ...". I don't think it is happen to be near, rather at.

ὡς - "on the premises", "at the home of" doesn't seem to have been translated.

ἐγγυτάτω - these are superlative adverbs, but the superlative sense doesn't seem to have been brought out. [near - nearer - nearest, far - further - furthest, few - fewer - fewest]

διατριβόντων "waste"? time, or the more neutral "spend" time. None of the New Testament examples - with or without χρόνον seem to have the sense of "waste" eg. Acts 15:35 Παῦλος δὲ καὶ Βαρνάβας διέτριβον ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ, διδάσκοντες καὶ εὐαγγελιζόμενοι, μετὰ καὶ ἑτέρων πολλῶν, τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου.

εἴθισθε - how did this become "them"

προσφοιτᾶν καὶ διατρίβειν - spend time both often and long

ἁμοῦ γέ που - I'm no longer sure of my understanding here. I'll get back to you.
Lysias 24.20 wrote:ἕκαστος γὰρ ὑμῶν εἴθισται προσφοιτᾶν ὁ μὲν πρὸς μυροπώλιον, ὁ δὲ πρὸς κουρεῖον, ὁ δὲ πρὸς σκυτοτομεῖον, ὁ δὅποι ἂν τύχῃ, καὶ πλεῖστοι μὲν ὡς τοὺς ἐγγυτάτω τῆς ἀγορᾶς κατεσκευασμένους, ἐλάχιστοι δὲ ὡς τοὺς πλεῖστον ἀπέχοντας αὐτῆς: ὥστ᾽ εἴ τις ὑμῶν πονηρίαν καταγνώσεται τῶν ὡς ἐμὲ εἰσιόντων, δῆλον ὅτι καὶ τῶν παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις διατριβόντων: εἰ δὲ κἀκείνων, ἁπάντων Ἀθηναίων: ἅπαντες γὰρ εἴθισθε προσφοιτᾶν καὶ διατρίβειν ἁμοῦ γέ που.
Wes Wood - Lysias 24.20 [i]On the refusal of a pension to the invalid.[/i] wrote:For each of you is accustomed to frequenting the perfumer’s shop, or the barber’s shop, or the shoemaker’s shop, or to whatever place you happen to be near, and indeed it seems most [frequent] the ones that have been built near the marketplace, but fewer seem [to frequent] the ones farther away from it: therefore, if one of you will lay a charge [of] wickedness against those who enter my business, it is clear that [you should] also [lay charge against] the ones who are wasting time with other [shopkeepers?]: but if that is the case, [they should lay charge] against all of the Athenians: for all of them have become accustomed to frequent and to waste time somewhere or other.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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