ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)

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Andrew Chapman
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ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)

Post by Andrew Chapman » September 9th, 2014, 1:32 pm

συγγνώμονάς τοι τοὺς θεοὺς εἶναι δόκει,
ὅταν τις ὅρκῳ θάνατον ἐκφυγεῖν θέλῃ
ἢ δεσμὸν ἢ βίαια πολεμίων κακά,
ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων.

[Euripides, Fragment 645 in Nauck]

I came across a claim in a paper by Leland Wilshire [The TLG .. and αὐθεντέω in 1 Timothy 2.12, NTS Jan 88, p134] that the last clause means 'sharing the house with murdered children', and was wondering if that could be right.

Elsewhere, αὐθέντης is used adjectivally on a couple of occasions in connection with φόνος or θάνατος to mean something like 'of same kin'. Although there is a connection with murder the force of it seems to be more on the kinship side, to define what sort of murder it is. Admittedly, in connection with θάνατος, maybe it also conveys that it was a murderous death, as well as that it was kin on kin, I am not sure - the two cases are both in Liddell and Scott.

It is beyond my ability to translate the above sentence, but here is my best shot:

'It seems the gods are in agreement with you
when anyone wants, by an oath, to escape from death
or chain or the violent evil of war,
or to share homes with [..] children'

That doesn't make great sense, but it occurs to me that αὐθένταισι might just mean something like 'their own' - somebody wants to run away from war and stay at home. Can it really mean 'murdered'?

Thanks for your help with this,

Andrew
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Andrew Chapman
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Re: ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)

Post by Andrew Chapman » September 29th, 2014, 7:13 am

I misread δόκει (2nd sg imperative) for δοκεῖ (3rd sg indicative).

συγγνώμων can mean 'disposed to pardon or forgive'.

and I am told that παισὶν αὐθένταισι can simply be two nouns in apposition - 'offspring who are murderers'. This last I don't feel entirely familiar with. I can't say I remember seeing this in the New Testament, which is where most of my reading has been - but it may well be there. Or is this more of a classical thing?

Andrew
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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)

Post by Shirley Rollinson » September 30th, 2014, 10:00 pm

Andrew Chapman wrote:I misread δόκει (2nd sg imperative) for δοκεῖ (3rd sg indicative).

συγγνώμων can mean 'disposed to pardon or forgive'.

and I am told that παισὶν αὐθένταισι can simply be two nouns in apposition - 'offspring who are murderers'. This last I don't feel entirely familiar with. I can't say I remember seeing this in the New Testament, which is where most of my reading has been - but it may well be there. Or is this more of a classical thing?

Andrew
I think I would take αὐθεντέω to be in the sense of "to rule, take authority over, to act on one's one authority" - it "feels" to me as if the "murder" connotation occurs when in conjuction with θάνατος.
Save us from sharing a house where the children rule the roost :-)
Just my two oboli
Shirley Rollinson
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Andrew Chapman
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Re: ἢ παισὶν αὐθένταισι κοινωνῇ δόμων (Euripides)

Post by Andrew Chapman » October 1st, 2014, 3:48 am

Shirley Rollinson wrote: I think I would take αὐθεντέω to be in the sense of "to rule, take authority over, to act on one's one authority" - it "feels" to me as if the "murder" connotation occurs when in conjuction with θάνατος.
Would it not have to be αὐθεντοῦσιν, as in σὺν αὐθεντ[οῦ]σιν ἄν[αξιν] in Philodemus On Rhetoric [P. Herc. 220; Sudhaus Vol.2 p.133]? There the question arose as to whether it should be reconstructed as σὺν αὐθέντ[αι]σιν ἄν[αξιν]. I have the same query regarding this idea, as to how normal it is to have two nouns in apposition like this - 'with lords (who are/that is with) murderers)' or somesuch.

I just came across this:

Ἐγένετο δὲ πορευομένων ἡμῶν εἰς τὴν προσευχὴν παιδίσκην τινὰ ἔχουσαν πνεῦμα πύθωνα ὑπαντῆσαι ἡμῖν, [Acts 16.16]

which works in English too - a python spirit. Many manuscripts have πνεῦμα πύθωνος. Does this suggest that others might have had difficulty with the two nouns place side by side in appostion?

I don't think there is any evidence for αὐθεντέω in the senses you suggest before 1 BC. For αὐθέντης with the meaning 'master', there is one apparent case in Euripides Suppliants 442, but I have the impression that there is something of a consensus that this can't be the correct reading - or that it is a later interpolation.

Andrew
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