Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

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Stephen Hughes
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Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I'm still a distance behind Wes in the first chapter of Xenophon's Estate manager (Οἰκονομικός), and that the last two sections of that chapter are going to be quite arduous to get through, but rather than leave things to the last minute, now might be a good time to ask for future direction.

These earlier short readings, followed by the Lysias and now Xenophon are essentially a pass-the-torch level exchange, rather than a set-the-forest-on-fire type stimulation of interest in broader Greek literature as it helps us to understand the New Testament in a more practiced manner, but it has evidently been of value.

There are a number of options for after Xenophon Chapter One:
  • Continuing with Chapter Two of the Estate manager is a good option. There 18 sections. Socrates and Critobulus continue their exchange, discussing affluence and frugality. The language is more of the same, which could be good practice, but not much new.
  • Reading some of Arrian's Tactica might be good too because it has a lot of description of spatial positions, which would be good for relating Greek to the concrete world around us.
  • Of the geographers Pausanias and Strabo, Strabo is probably the easiest to read without a background in Classical studies.
  • Reading some Doric Koine would probably do more to introduce dialectical forms in general, rather than show how they united into a Lingua Franca.
  • Some Euripides may be good for the experience of reading drama.
  • Plotinus is an often mentioned but little read philosopher who is said to have had a great effect on the development of Christian thinking.
  • The protoevangelium of James makes for easy reading due to its closeness to the Gospels in style and content.
  • Eusebius' verbosity is both annoying and helpful and his work is important in the history of Christianity.
As for the other two obvious candidates, I think that Epictetus is already getting good exposure from Randall, Louis and Jordan capable hands and I don't feel confident to discuss Homer this long after reading it.

I think they are all good in their own ways (Doric Koine less so). Any other ideas?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Here are a few trailers to let you see what the texts are like...
Arrian, [i]Tactica[/i], 21, 1 wrote:κλίσις μὲν δή ἐστιν ἡ κατ᾽ ἄνδρα κίνησις, καὶ τῆς κλίσεως ἐπὶ δόρυ μὲν καλεῖται ἡ ἐς τὰ δεξιά, ἵναπερ τὸ δόρυ ἐστὶ τῷ ὁπλίτῃ, ἐπ᾽ ἀσπίδα δὲ ἡ ἐπὶ τὰ λαιά, ἵνα φέρει τὴν ἀσπίδα.
κλίσις - turning, ἐπὶ δόρυ - "on the spear" <=> ἐφ᾽ ἡνίαν "on the reins" or (ἐπ᾽ ἀσπίδα "on the shield") - the spear was held in the right hand and the shield or reins in the left, ἐς τὰ δεξιά "to the right" <=> ἐπὶ τὰ λαιά "to the left", ἵνα "in that place", "there" - here it is used in its adverbial usage
Strabo, [i]Geographica[/i], 12.5.1 wrote:πρὸς νότον τοίνυν εἰσὶ τοῖς Παφλαγόσι Γαλάται: τούτων δ᾽ ἐστὶν ἔθνη τρία, δύο μὲν τῶν ἡγεμόνων ἐπώνυμα, Τροκμοὶ καὶ Τολιστοβώγιοι, τὸ τρίτον δ᾽ ἀπὸ τοῦ ἐν Κελτικῇ ἔθνους Τεκτόσαγες. κατέσχον δὲ τὴν χώραν ταύτην οἱ Γαλάται πλανηθέντες πολὺν χρόνον καὶ καταδραμόντες τὴν ὑπὸ τοῖς Ἀτταλικοῖς [p. 796] βασιλεῦσι χώραν καὶ τοῖς Βιθυνοῖς, ἕως παρ᾽ ἑκόντων ἔλαβον τὴν νῦν Γαλατίαν καὶ Γαλλογραικίαν λεγομένην.
The capitalised words are proper names of either people, tribes or places.
πρὸς νότον "to the south", ἐπώνυμα "named after" (+gen.), κατέσχον "possess", "occupy", πλανηθέντες "wandering", καταδραμόντες "laying waste", παρ᾽ ἑκόντων "from willing people"
Euripides, [i]Hippolytus[/i], 267-270 wrote:γύναι γεραιά, βασιλίδος πιστὴ τροφέ,
Φαίδρας ὁρῶμεν τάσδε δυστήνους τύχας.
ἄσημα δ᾽ ἡμῖν ἥτις ἐστὶν ἡ νόσος:
σοῦ δ᾽ ἂν πυθέσθαι καὶ κλύειν βουλοίμεθ᾽ ἄν. 270
γεραιά "old", βασιλίς "queen", τροφός "nurse", Φαίδρα - a proper name, δύστηνος "wretched", τύχαι "fortunes", ἄσημα "unclear", νόσος "distress", "anguish", πυθέσθαι "inquire", κλύειν "hear".
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6.1.1 wrote:Ὡς δὲ καὶ Σευῆρος διωγμὸν κατὰ τῶν ἐκκλησιῶν ἐκίνει, λαμπρὰ μὲν τῶν ὑπὲρ εὐσεβείας ἀθλητῶν κατὰ πάντα τόπον ἀπετελεῖτο μαρτύρια, μάλιστα δ̓ ἐπλήθυεν ἐπ̓ Ἀλεξανδρείας, τῶν ἀπ̓ Αἰγύπτου καὶ Θηβαΐδος ἁπάσης αὐτόθι ὥσπερ ἐπὶ μέγιστον ἀθλητῶν θεοῦ παραπεμπομένων στάδιον διὰ καρτερικωτάτης τε ποικίλων βασάνων καὶ θανάτου τρόπων ὑπομονῆς τοὺς παρὰ θεῷ στεφάνους ἀναδουμένων: ἐν οἷς καὶ Λεωνίδης, ὁ λεγόμενος Ὠριγένους πατήρ, τὴν κεφαλὴν ἀποτμηθείς, νέον κομιδῇ καταλείπει τὸν παῖδα: ὃς δὴ ὁποίας ἐξ ἐκείνου περὶ τὸν θεῖον λόγον προαιρέσεως ἦν, οὐκ ἄκαιρον διὰ βραχέων διελθεῖν τῷ μάλιστα πολὺν εἶναι παρὰ τοῖς πολλοῖς τὸν περὶ αὐτοῦ βεβοημένον λόγον.
διωγμὸν "persecution", ἀθλητής "champion", ἀπετελεῖτο "acomplished", μαρτύριον "witness", πληθύω "to be multiplied", παραπεμπομένων "were brought to", καρτερικὴ ὑπομονή "capable of enduring", ἀναδέω "bind up", κομιδῇ "exactly", "just", ὁποίας ... προαιρέσεως "such a affection for", τὸν ... βεβοημένον λόγον "the acclaimed word".
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
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Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Wes Wood »

For my part, I wouldn't mind to work through Xenophon and then transition to Euripides. Sorry for the early post. My daughter decided it was good enough as it was. :lol:
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:For my part, I wouldn't mind to work through Xenophon and then transition to Euripides.
Carl's comment to me two days after we started this was
cwconrad in a PM wrote:I think, ... that you've underestimated the dimensions of this work of Xenophon's -- it's actually a lot longer than the Lysias speech.
Xenophon's Estate Manager is what we have read already, squared. There are totally 21 chapters in this work.

Look at the adverbs of the duration and frequency of time that seem to regularly accompany διαλέγεσθαι. The longest mentioned is "three months" and "every day" also sits quite well too.
Acts 19:9 wrote:Εἰσελθὼν δὲ εἰς τὴν συναγωγὴν ἐπαρρησιάζετο, ἐπὶ μῆνας τρεῖς διαλεγόμενος καὶ πείθων τὰ περὶ τῆς βασιλείας τοῦ θεοῦ.
Acts 19:9 wrote:ἀποστὰς ἀπ’ αὐτῶν ἀφώρισεν τοὺς μαθητάς, καθ’ ἡμέραν διαλεγόμενος ἐν τῇ σχολῇ Τυράννου τινός.
Acts 20:9 wrote:διαλεγομένου τοῦ Παύλου ἐπὶ πλεῖον
If we "work through Xenophon" then the length and style of this type of "reasoned with them" references are going to have a real (first-hand experience) meaning for you, both from the point of view of the style and method, and also the length of it.

Another interesting comment that Carl made about this work is
cwconrad wrote:I think ... also that it's a lot easier, relatively speaking, than the Lysias speech.
In fact, the first few chapters of coming to terms with a new authour is always the most difficult, and after that things begin to go downhill (in the good sense of that phrase).

He (or rarely she as in the case of Sappho) uses different turns of phrase than we have been used to before and his own basic set of vocabulary. I've read whatever prescription of Xenophon's Anabasis that was set for beginning students in my University and later a little besides, but even so this Estate Manager is "new" to me in the sense that it is the same authour using his skills for a different purpose, for a different audience and therefore writing in a different style.

The Anabasis (by far the most read of Xenophon's works) was a descriptive narrative of a military campaign, which had a readily recognisable flow to it, while the Estate Manager that we are reading relies for its coherence on the development of an argument about what constitutes a good steward. Getting to a point where you are "at home" in the domain of discourse of the Socratic dialogue will, in itself, be a major undertaking and an achievement, considering that you are doing it in a second language (not the language of your previous education). The obvious advantage that that affords us is that we are a little closer to understanding the Hellenistic world that is often mentioned, but rarely explained with any degree of satisfaction. Xenophon's writings were part of the heritage that was embraced across Alexander's conquered territories, and this form of dialogue that you are reading was one of the ways used to convey ideas in that milieu. In itself, that makes this work valuable. In addition to that, we are able to come a little closer to understanding what was taking place in the New Testament passages where "reasoning" with people is mentioned - leading to a better ratio of real understanding : imagination, when we read those passages.

From the descriptions I have read, Arrian, whom I quoted earlier in the post, was a truly versatile writer, composing in three dialects of Greek - the Koine, Attic proper and Ionian. (That quote is in Attic).

What I can't give you in all this, because I have only a smattering of it myself, is a formal understanding of the rhetorical devices that are being employed here. I have an "adequate" understanding of the Greek in most places, but what would be even better would be an understanding of the way that the language is being used within the constraints of this form of discourse that reading the text gives us exposure to. My fair to middling appreciation of the text also lacks the exactitude of a logician's grammatical insight. Despite the fact that the full light of the days brilliance has not yet arrived, that doesn't stop us from pottering about with the text as we forage for a few tidbits to tide us over till our eyes become less dim (or we increase the font size). :lol:

If we were to "transition to Euripides" later, that would to some small degree be similar a standard introductory level Greek reading course prescription. You, of course, are approaching the texts from a different level of understanding. As with any attempt to gain a skill, the only way is hands on practice. It seems far away, but with some practice, you'll be able to prepare "hints" in 15 or 20 minutes, rather than 2 or 3 days per section.
Wes Wood wrote:Sorry for the early post. My daughter decided it was good enough as it was. :lol:
Cuteness +1
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
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Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Wes Wood »

The good news is my most recently posted hints and translations were done all at once in the same sitting. (Most I think, one per day.) The bad news is many of them were wrong. :|

I did not realize that the entire work is that long. Given my pace and number of errors that would take forever. Really, I am up for whatever you want to do. I am content to follow the leader. I believe I will be able to finish this section before the delivery, and I should be more consistent after that.

For what it's worth, I do believe this reading is easier than the last. Initially, I had hoped it was because my ability had improved by a hair's breadth. I think it was partly this and largely because the context provides more aid.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:The good news is my most recently posted hints and translations were done all at once in the same sitting. (Most I think, one per day.) The bad news is many of them were wrong. :|
Van Gough didn't paint with a single brush-stroke. The more you use your talent the less your handling of the text will be simply a single line from A to B. Masterpieces are able to convey a subtext and a context all within the one work of art.
Wes Wood wrote:I did not realize that the entire work is that long. Given my pace and number of errors that would take forever.
It is often stated dream that people have, to be able pick up Greek and read it like English. That requires practice. This is practice. You could do this.
Wes Wood wrote:Really, I am up for whatever you want to do. I am content to follow the leader. I believe I will be able to finish this section before the delivery, and I should be more consistent after that.
You've been doing quite well as the leader, If we go back to me leading after the delivery, I'm sure you would be able to both handle the texts and to criticise my hints :geek: Once you've seen what makes the shadows on the wall, you will always remember them.
Wes Wood wrote:For what it's worth, I do believe this reading is easier than the last. Initially, I had hoped it was because my ability had improved by a hair's breadth. I think it was partly this and largely because the context provides more aid.
Have a look at this quote from section 21 of this work. It will be some time before we get there, so it shouldn't prejudice your reading when you get there. Just skimming through it will give you some idea how far you have progressed.
[url=http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0211%3Atext%3DEc.%3Achapter%3D11]Xenophon, [i]Economics[/i], Chapter 21[/url], sections 1-4 wrote:ἐντεῦθεν δ᾽ ἐγὼ εἶπον: ὦ Ἰσχόμαχε, τὰ μὲν δὴ περὶ τῶν τῆς γυναικὸς ἔργων ἱκανῶς μοι δοκῶ ἀκηκοέναι τὴν πρώτην, καὶ ἄξιά γε πάνυ ἐπαίνου ἀμφοτέρων ὑμῶν. τὰ δ᾽ αὖ σὰ ἔργα, ἔφην ἐγώ, ἤδη μοι λέγε, ἵνα σύ τε ἐφ᾽ οἷς εὐδοκιμεῖς διηγησάμενος ἡσθῇς κἀγὼ τὰ τοῦ καλοῦ κἀγαθοῦ ἀνδρὸς ἔργα τελέως διακούσας καὶ καταμαθών, ἂν δύνωμαι, πολλήν σοι χάριν εἰδῶ. [2] ἀλλὰ νὴ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Ἰσχόμαχος, καὶ πάνυ ἡδέως σοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, διηγήσομαι ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶν διατελῶ, ἵνα καὶ μεταρρυθμίσῃς με, ἐάν τί σοι δοκῶ μὴ καλῶς ποιεῖν. [3] ἀλλ᾽ ἐγὼ μὲν δή, ἔφην, πῶς ἂν δικαίως μεταρρυθμίσαιμι ἄνδρα ἀπειργασμένον καλόν τε κἀγαθόν, καὶ ταῦτα ὢν ἀνὴρ ὃς ἀδολεσχεῖν τε δοκῶ καὶ ἀερομετρεῖν καί, τὸ πάντων δὴ ἀνοητότατον δοκοῦν εἶναι ἔγκλημα, πένης καλοῦμαι; [4] καὶ πάνυ μεντἄν, ὦ Ἰσχόμαχε, ἦν ἐν πολλῇ ἀθυμίᾳ τῷ ἐπικλήματι τούτῳ, εἰ μὴ πρῴην ἀπαντήσας τῷ Νικίου τοῦ †ἐπηλύτου ἵππῳ εἶδον πολλοὺς ἀκολουθοῦντας αὐτῷ θεατάς, πολὺν δὲ λόγον ἐχόντων τινῶν περὶ αὐτοῦ ἤκουον: καὶ δῆτα ἠρόμην προσελθὼν τὸν ἱπποκόμον εἰ πολλὰ εἴη χρήματα τῷ ἵππῳ.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
TimNelson
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Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by TimNelson »

Stephen Hughes wrote: What I can't give you in all this, because I have only a smattering of it myself, is a formal understanding of the rhetorical devices that are being employed here. I have an "adequate" understanding of the Greek in most places, but what would be even better would be an understanding of the way that the language is being used within the constraints of this form of discourse that reading the text gives us exposure to. My fair to middling appreciation of the text also lacks the exactitude of a logician's grammatical insight. Despite the fact that the full light of the days brilliance has not yet arrived, that doesn't stop us from pottering about with the text as we forage for a few tidbits to tide us over till our eyes become less dim (or we increase the font size).
I may be irrelevant here, but when you said "rhetorical devices", I was reminded that someone (Aristotle? Plato?) wrote something on rhetoric. Might that be useful?
--
Tim Nelson
B. Sc. (Computer Science), M. Div. Looking for work (in computing or language-related jobs).
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Aristotle's Rhetoric is long and dry ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

As we are anticipating having chapter 4 of Xenophon's Oeconomicus done and dusted by mid to late January, it is probably worth thinking ahead to chapters VII - XIII (ETA summer holiday).

Straight to the point, there is a prepared school text of the work prepared in Bristol Greek Texts Series. It is worth about $16 - $20 dollars. There are some details about where you could get a copy it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and Blackwell's. For me at least, I'm looking at about a two month delivery time, so I need to order pretty smartly, perhaps by March.

My thinking is that instead of somebody writing hints, we could use the prepared text then discuss things as we go through it. It would be both a new experience and very close to the actual university work-from-a-textbook experience. I anticipate of course that there would have to be the regular discussion of syntax and laconic statements.

After chapter XIII, I suppose we would need to come back to the present hint-posting format.

How does that sit with people?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Read on with Xenophon, read another or ... ?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes has almost prepared chapter 3 of the Oeconomicus.

Is anybody willing to step up and play the rôle of the student interlocutor with him?

I could humble myself and become his student, but I want to take the counsellor's part and value add to the discussion with syntactic parallels and comments rather than take that student rôle myself.

I'm sure it is evident to all how much Wes has benefited from his involvement with me, is anyone else up for that or in a position to commit to that for this chapter for that?

Chapter 4 will be my hinting again.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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