Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Stephen Hughes
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Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 6th, 2014, 8:27 am

This is Chapter 2, the continuation from Chapter 1 of ὁ Οἰκονομικὸς τοῦ Ξενοφῶντος (Xenophon's Oeconomicus - A Socratic Dialogue Composed by Xenophon of Athens about the Frugal Estate Manager).

In this thread, I'll makes the hints a bit more succinct. We can discuss any interesting parallels as we go through, rather than burden the hints with them.

Index to the text and hints for each section:
Section1,
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on December 6th, 2014, 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 6th, 2014, 8:27 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 1 wrote:ὁ οὖν Κριτόβουλος ἐκ τούτων ὧδέ πως εἶπεν: ἀλλὰ περὶ μὲν τῶν τοιούτων ἀρκούντως πάνυ μοι δοκῶ τὰ λεγόμενα ὑπὸ σοῦ ἀκηκοέναι: αὐτὸς δ᾽ ἐμαυτὸν ἐξετάζων δοκῶ μοι εὑρίσκειν ἐπιεικῶς τῶν τοιούτων ἐγκρατῆ ὄντα, ὥστ᾽ εἴ μοι συμβουλεύοις ὅ τι ἂν ποιῶν αὔξοιμι τὸν οἶκον, οὐκ ἄν μοι δοκῶ ὑπό γε τούτων ὧν σὺ δεσποινῶν καλεῖς κωλύεσθαι: ἀλλὰ θαρρῶν συμβούλευε ὅ τι ἔχεις ἀγαθόν: ἢ κατέγνωκας ἡμῶν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἱκανῶς πλουτεῖν καὶ οὐδὲν δοκοῦμέν σοι προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων;
Hints:
ἐκ τούτων - thereafter
περὶ ... τῶν τοιούτων - understand "vices"
ἀρκούντως - enough
ἀκηκοέναι - perfect active infinitive of ἀκούειν.
ἐξετάζων - examine well
ἐπιεικῶς - suitably
τῶν τοιούτων ἐγκρατῆ - in (self-)control of these things
συμβουλεύοις (+dative of the person advised) (also συμβούλευε imp. a ways down the page) - (optative not dative) advise
αὔξοιμι - optative
δεσποινῶν - this is genitive because it agrees with the ὑπό that indicates the agent of the passive verb, but it needs to be understood as an accusative with καλεῖς too.
κωλύεσθαι - to be hindered
θαρρῶν - In the Koine of the New Testament, we find θαρσέω being of good courage, while θαρρέω (which this form looks like) means be assertive. the double rho is a distinctive feature of the Attic dialect, probably no more pronounced than some features that set speakers from various English speakers of New England (or any other region) apart from the whole.
κατέγνωκας (+gen of person against whom the prejudicial decision is made) - you have decided, reached a final decision (without taking adequate notice of the facts)
ἱκανῶς - sufficiently
προσδεῖσθαι - to have need of besides what they already have
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 13th, 2014, 10:41 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 2 wrote:οὔκουν ἔγωγε, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, εἰ καὶ περὶ ἐμοῦ λέγεις, οὐδέν μοι δοκῶ προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων, ἀλλ᾽ ἱκανῶς πλουτεῖν: σὺ μέντοι, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, πάνυ μοι δοκεῖς πένεσθαι, καὶ ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽ ἔστιν ὅτε καὶ πάνυ οἰκτίρω σε ἐγώ.
Hints:
οὔκουν ἔγωγε - although it is tempting to ignore the case here as see it as stomping the foot with the περὶ ἐμοῦ, let's not take that liberty, and wait till we get to οὐδέν μοι δοκῶ προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων
ἀλλ᾽ ἱκανῶς πλουτεῖν - ἀλλ᾽ {μοι δοκῶ} ἱκανῶς πλουτεῖν
μέντοι - of course
πένεσθαι - to be poor or needy
πάνυ μοι δοκεῖς πένεσθαι - this is a well-balanced construction not strange word-order
ἔστιν ὅτε - an elliptical set phrase meaning, there are times when, sometimes, now and then
οἰκτίρω - this form could be present indicative, present or aorist subjunctive. I take it as present indicative as a statement of easily recognisable fact.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 13th, 2014, 11:33 am

Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 1 wrote: ὁ οὖν Κριτόβουλος ἐκ τούτων ὧδέ πως εἶπεν: ἀλλὰ περὶ μὲν τῶν τοιούτων ἀρκούντως πάνυ μοι δοκῶ τὰ λεγόμενα ὑπὸ σοῦ ἀκηκοέναι: αὐτὸς δ᾽ ἐμαυτὸν ἐξετάζων δοκῶ μοι εὑρίσκειν ἐπιεικῶς τῶν τοιούτων ἐγκρατῆ ὄντα, ὥστ᾽ εἴ μοι συμβουλεύοις ὅ τι ἂν ποιῶν αὔξοιμι τὸν οἶκον, οὐκ ἄν μοι δοκῶ ὑπό γε τούτων ὧν σὺ δεσποινῶν καλεῖς κωλύεσθαι: ἀλλὰ θαρρῶν συμβούλευε ὅ τι ἔχεις ἀγαθόν: ἢ κατέγνωκας ἡμῶν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἱκανῶς πλουτεῖν καὶ οὐδὲν δοκοῦμέν σοι προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων;
Then Kritoboulus thereafter in this way thus spoke: but indeed about these vices [you have spoken] enough already to me I seem to have heard the things being spoken by you. But while carefully examining myself I seem to find myself being suitably in control of these things. Therefore, if you wish to advise me about what things I can do to increase my estate, I do not seem to be hindered by these things which you call mistresses. But, while you are asserting, advise [me with] whatever good you have: or have you decided against us, O Socrates, that we are sufficiently wealthy and we seem to you to need no other goods?

Sorry for the long hiatus. I have had less time (and less sleep) than anticipated. I promise I will post when I can.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 13th, 2014, 3:16 pm

This is (so far) at a more join-the-dots level, rather than the higher level that you are used to. Perhaps that will suit you at this time.
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2, Section 1 wrote: ὁ οὖν Κριτόβουλος ἐκ τούτων ὧδέ πως εἶπεν: ἀλλὰ περὶ μὲν τῶν τοιούτων ἀρκούντως πάνυ μοι δοκῶ τὰ λεγόμενα ὑπὸ σοῦ ἀκηκοέναι: αὐτὸς δ᾽ ἐμαυτὸν ἐξετάζων δοκῶ μοι εὑρίσκειν ἐπιεικῶς τῶν τοιούτων ἐγκρατῆ ὄντα, ὥστ᾽ εἴ μοι συμβουλεύοις ὅ τι ἂν ποιῶν αὔξοιμι τὸν οἶκον, οὐκ ἄν μοι δοκῶ ὑπό γε τούτων ὧν σὺ δεσποινῶν καλεῖς κωλύεσθαι: ἀλλὰ θαρρῶν συμβούλευε ὅ τι ἔχεις ἀγαθόν: ἢ κατέγνωκας ἡμῶν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἱκανῶς πλουτεῖν καὶ οὐδὲν δοκοῦμέν σοι προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων;
Then Kritoboulus thereafter in this way thus spoke: but indeed about these vices [you have spoken] enough already to me I seem to have heard the things being spoken by you. But while carefully examining myself I seem to find myself being suitably in control of these things. Therefore, if you wish to advise me about what things I can do to increase my estate, I do not seem to be hindered by these things which you call mistresses. But, while you are asserting, advise [me with] whatever good you have: or have you decided against us, O Socrates, that we are sufficiently wealthy and we seem to you to need no other goods?
ἐκ τούτων - I tend to agree with you, rather than my hint on this.
περὶ μὲν τῶν τοιούτων - vices such as these - it is slightly more than "these" (vices). Likewise τῶν τοιούτων ἐγκρατῆ
θαρρῶν - "while you are asserting" - there is more here than the verb itself carries.
οὐδὲν ... χρημάτων - no other goods - perhaps more general "wealth", "money"
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 14th, 2014, 12:44 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 3 wrote:καὶ ὁ Κριτόβουλος γελάσας εἶπε: καὶ πόσον ἂν πρὸς τῶν θεῶν οἴει, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, εὑρεῖν τὰ σὰ κτήματα πωλούμενα, πόσον δὲ τὰ ἐμά; ἐγὼ μὲν οἶμαι, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, εἰ ἀγαθοῦ ὠνητοῦ ἐπιτύχοιμι, εὑρεῖν ἄν μοι σὺν τῇ οἰκίᾳ καὶ τὰ ὄντα πάντα πάνυ ῥᾳδίως πέντε μνᾶς: τὰ μέντοι σὰ ἀκριβῶς οἶδα ὅτι πλέον ἂν εὕροι ἢ ἑκατονταπλασίονα τούτου.
Hints:
γελάσας - the distinction between laugh and smile doesn't seem to have been so stark as we are used to in English.
πόσον - in regard to how much? for how much?
πρὸς τῶν θεῶν - in heaven's name, an adjuration that he should tell the truth
οἴει - suspect
εὑρεῖν - that you would find that
πόσον ... πωλούμενα - How much would / could they be sold for?
ὠνητοῦ - purchaser, buyer
πλέον ... ἢ - more than
ἑκατονταπλασίονα - a really big number of times (greater)
τούτου - the amount his was sold for (πέντε μνᾶς)
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 15th, 2014, 9:43 pm

Xenophon Chapter 2 section 2 wrote:οὔκουν ἔγωγε, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, εἰ καὶ περὶ ἐμοῦ λέγεις, οὐδέν μοι δοκῶ προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων, ἀλλ᾽ ἱκανῶς πλουτεῖν: σὺ μέντοι, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, πάνυ μοι δοκεῖς πένεσθαι, καὶ ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽ ἔστιν ὅτε καὶ πάνυ οἰκτίρω σε ἐγώ.
Socrates said, "If you are speaking about me also, I certainly don't think I need anything else, but I am sufficiently wealthy. You, on the other hand, seem to me to be very much in need, Kritoboulus, and yes I swear I even feel very sorry for you now and then."
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » December 15th, 2014, 9:46 pm

Xenophon Chapter 2 section 3 wrote:καὶ ὁ Κριτόβουλος γελάσας εἶπε: καὶ πόσον ἂν πρὸς τῶν θεῶν οἴει, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, εὑρεῖν τὰ σὰ κτήματα πωλούμενα, πόσον δὲ τὰ ἐμά; ἐγὼ μὲν οἶμαι, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, εἰ ἀγαθοῦ ὠνητοῦ ἐπιτύχοιμι, εὑρεῖν ἄν μοι σὺν τῇ οἰκίᾳ καὶ τὰ ὄντα πάντα πάνυ ῥᾳδίως πέντε μνᾶς: τὰ μέντοι σὰ ἀκριβῶς οἶδα ὅτι πλέον ἂν εὕροι ἢ ἑκατονταπλασίονα τούτου.
Kritoboulus after chuckling dismissively said, "By the heavens, how much do you suspect the things you possess would bring compared to mine if they were sold?"

"I think," Socrates said, "if I found a good buyer for all my possessions with the estate they would very easily sell for five minas. However, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your possessions would bring a hundred times more than this amount."
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 18th, 2014, 11:56 am

Xenophon, [i]The Frugal Estate Manager[/i], Chapter 2, Section 4 wrote:κᾆτα οὕτως ἐγνωκὼς σὺ μὲν οὐχ ἡγῇ προσδεῖσθαι χρημάτων, ἐμὲ δὲ οἰκτίρεις ἐπὶ τῇ πενίᾳ; τὰ μὲν γὰρ ἐμά, ἔφη, ἱκανά ἐστιν ἐμοὶ παρέχειν τὰ ἐμοὶ ἀρκοῦντα: εἰς δὲ τὸ σὸν σχῆμα ὃ σὺ περιβέβλησαι καὶ τὴν σὴν δόξαν, οὐδ᾽ εἰ τρὶς ὅσα νῦν κέκτησαι προσγένοιτό σοι, οὐδ᾽ ὣς ἂν ἱκανά μοι δοκεῖ εἶναί σοι.
Hints:
κᾆτα - καὶ εἶτα ... ; And then ... ?, And so, what? You think that because ... expressing surprise or sarcasm [Socrates estimates great wealth, then calls him poor.]
οὕτως - this adverb contains the thoughts of the last part of section 3.
ἐγνωκὼς - this participle is being used with the second person. The perfect reduplicated in epsilon is regular for this verb, cf. 2 John 1 ἀλλὰ καὶ πάντες οἱ ἐγνωκότες τὴν ἀλήθειαν,
ἡγῇ - (from ἡγέομαι) while this form could theoretically be either indicative or subjunctive, but seeing as the negative is οὐ it is probably indicative.
παρέχειν - supply
ἀρκοῦντα - (< ἀρκέω + dat. satisfy) the things that satisfy (me)
σχῆμα - outward appearance, trappings, show of style
περιβέβλησαι
δόξαν - reputation (what others think of you, how they esteem you)
οὐδέ ... οὐδέ ... - (these are not really the 3rd and 4th parts of the earlier μὲν ... δὲ ... construction) It's quite easy to see what the intent is here. The easy thing to say would be that ὣς = οὕτως "doing this last action" i.e. if there were a three-fold increase in what you possess. But that doesn't really explain the structure. The reason is that there isn't really a structure, there is the same structure sort of twice. He doesn't finish his sentence, then he starts again, uses the ὣς to repeat what he doesn't want to say again, then finishes it. Without putting the purpose first, and without that restarting of the sentence, it would read οὐδ᾽ εἰ τρὶς ὅσα νῦν κέκτησαι προσγένοιτό σοι, ἂν ἱκανά μοι δοκεῖ εἶναί σοι εἰς τὸ σὸν σχῆμα ὃ σὺ περιβέβλησαι καὶ τὴν σὴν δόξαν. or the like.
τρὶς (=/ τρεῖς) three time (as much as)
ὅσα νῦν κέκτησαι - a single phrase
προσγένοιτό - the verb is singular in form, but plural in usage because it is with a neuter plural subject. I'm not sure if the amount is picked up, then laid down three times, or added three times directly. I mean, if you have a 1 yuan coin, I take it and symbolically give it to you 3 times, you (symbolically) have 3 time the money. But, if you keep it and I symbolically add three times, then you end up with four times as much. I don't know how these guys thought of it, but the general intent is clear enough.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 18th, 2014, 12:05 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon Chapter 2 section 2 wrote:οὔκουν ...
Socrates said...
Good.
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon Chapter 2 section 3 wrote:καὶ ὁ Κριτόβουλος γελάσας εἶπε...
Kritoboulus after chuckling dismissively said,
Critobulus knows he is richer than Socrates, yet Socrates makes a big claim, following that, Critobulus laughs. Is that the interplay between them that led you to understand "dismissively"?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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