Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 18th, 2015, 6:31 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:e. εἰς τὸ ῥᾷον ὑποφέρειν τὰ {ὄντα} ἐμοὶ ἀναγκαῖα {φέρειν} πράγματα.
"to more easily bear up under the things which I have to bear."

Okay, let's take out the μοι and truncate the first section:
Modified first part of the section wrote:προθύμως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀποφεύγειν ... πειρᾷ μηδέν με συνωφελῆσαι εἴς τι
The constructions that it would be useful to be familiar with here are ὠφελεῖν τίνα and πειρῶσθαι πράσσειν τι, and the μοι is not really serving a grammatically related function here and μηδέν is adverbial.

The full verb is πειρᾷ "you are trying to", balanced to the left and right of it are the infinitives ἀποφεύγειν, then συνωφελῆσαι. πειρᾷ supports ἀποφεύγειν which in turn supports συνωφελῆσαι.

The phrase μηδέν με συνωφελῆσαι εἴς τι has the μηδέν emphatically placed at the front. The συν- is in contradistinction to the ἀπο- in ἀποφεύγειν "to avoid". Hence; "in no way at all to join in and help me for to ..."

μοι is like "blooming well", or some other expression of intense and personal dissatisfaction. cf. the intensity of the μοι in Philippians 1:22 Εἰ δὲ τὸ ζῇν ἐν σαρκί, τοῦτό μοι καρπὸς ἔργου· καὶ τί αἱρήσομαι οὐ γνωρίζω.

Is that at all helpful for straightening things out?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 19th, 2015, 1:58 pm

Thanks for this! I have gone through the text again now, and I think I understand it. I am still not certain about what to do to prevent future misreadings involving μοι like this. I think I just need to keep my eye out for similar constructions and study them as they appear.
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Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 19th, 2015, 2:26 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:δείξαιμί σοι - showed you - this is vaguer than the Greek, because it could mean he was standing any-old-where when he was showing. Consider that the Greek word for index finger, forefinger is ὁ δείκτης (not listed itself in LSJ if you were thinking to check, but ὁ ἀντίχειρ, "thumb" and ὁ δάκτυλος "finger" or "toe", and ὁ μείζων δάκτυλος "big toe" are). δείκνυμι, does mean "show", to a certain extent, but in the sense that the two of them would stand at some distance and he would extent his finger in the direction of the one who could teach music, so something like "point you on to" might be better.
That makes sense. I hadn't put those things together yet.
Stephen Hughes wrote:A musician might be knowledgeable about music (as a musicologist would be too), but here they want someone skilled in music.
I hadn't thought about that translational difficulty. Thanks for this.
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἔτι - still - I wonder from the Wood-ennes of this translation whether you are word for word rendering this or understanding then rendering? The question is whether "blame" is an ongoing action or something that arises in each instance. Perhaps, "in this case too". How do you say the third (or fourth, if the second one is "second") in the sequence, "His mum gave him an apple for his Maths teacher, and another for his English teacher, and ____ another for his Science teacher." That blank in your idiolect will probably give you a hint as to how you will render the ἔτι here.
I think I understood the text as making a comparison between the examples he lists and another set of circumstances. "You wouldn't blame me for these things, but you still blame me for these other things."
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 19th, 2015, 2:28 pm

Wes Wood wrote:Thanks for this! I have gone through the text again now, and I think I understand it. I am still not certain about what to do to prevent future misreadings involving μοι like this. I think I just need to keep my eye out for similar constructions and study them as they appear.
Well, there will always be little glitches. I looked in the textual commentary to find the understanding for that point. I hadn't looked at till now, and to say the truth, it is extremely laconic. Either it is designed to test a student's mettle or the students of the 19th century were a step above what I have ever been in my studies. I find it difficult to follow in places.

To let you know you candidly, I don't feel comfortable going to this level of explanation of how the text works. It contains as much of how I personally deal with the Greek as it does an explanation of the Greek on its own terms itself. While that is not bad, as such, it doesn't give you the opportunity to develop your own native / organic strategies to deal with things. I'd prefer to foster the development your own thinking and see you experience the text on your own terms, rather than clone my still developing way of understanding. Given as this is still early stages, it is better to compromise my ideas and give you a workable solution to get around the seeming lack of sense.

The main thing is that you should be starting to recognise the structure of Greek in terms of first how the syntax marking words structure the flow of the text, then what things go with what verbs, and finally get down to the word by word meaning.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on January 19th, 2015, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 19th, 2015, 2:35 pm

My knowledge of what form to expect with what verb is something that I sorely lacked when we started this endeavor. The significance of the notes by the vocabulary wasn't clear to me (takes dat., etc.) while I was learning. This speaks to my ignorance and not the materials used, of course. One verb at a time...
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 19th, 2015, 2:56 pm

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:ἔτι - still - I wonder from the Wood-ennes of this translation whether you are word for word rendering this or understanding then rendering? The question is whether "blame" is an ongoing action or something that arises in each instance. Perhaps, "in this case too". How do you say the third (or fourth, if the second one is "second") in the sequence, "His mum gave him an apple for his Maths teacher, and another for his English teacher, and ____ another for his Science teacher." That blank in your idiolect will probably give you a hint as to how you will render the ἔτι here.
I think I understood the text as making a comparison between the examples he lists and another set of circumstances. "You wouldn't blame me for these things, but you still blame me for these other things."

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. I'm wary that you are understanding that the ἔτι refers to the continuation of blaming over a long time frame, which I don't think is true for those hypothetical real-life examples, or for this mooted point about learning music either. ἔτι is modifying something in the future, "still (in the same line of thought)", "going on further", "taking that further again to a hypothetical point".

Just to be sure ... Are we agreed on the number of actions?
Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 15 wrote:οἶμαι δ᾽ ἂν καὶ εἰ ἐπὶ πῦρ ἐλθόντος σου καὶ μὴ ὄντος παρ᾽ ἐμοί, εἰ ἄλλοσε ἡγησάμην ὁπόθεν σοι εἴη λαβεῖν, οὐκ ἂν ἐμέμφου μοι, καὶ εἰ ὕδωρ παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ αἰτοῦντί σοι αὐτὸς μὴ ἔχων ἄλλοσε καὶ ἐπὶ τοῦτο ἤγαγον, οἶδ᾽ ὅτι οὐδ᾽ ἂν τοῦτό μοι ἐμέμφου, καὶ εἰ βουλομένου μουσικὴν μαθεῖν σου παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ δείξαιμί σοι πολὺ δεινοτέρους ἐμοῦ περὶ μουσικὴν καί σοι χάριν <ἂν> εἰδότας, εἰ ἐθέλοις παρ᾽ αὐτῶν μανθάνειν, τί ἂν ἔτι μοι ταῦτα ποιοῦντι μέμφοιο;
I don't know why he doesn't say he will take him to the musician's studio to learn, but only point him on to it?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 19th, 2015, 3:00 pm

Wes Wood wrote:My knowledge of what form to expect with what verb is something that I sorely lacked when we started this endeavor. The significance of the notes by the vocabulary wasn't clear to me (takes dat., etc.) while I was learning. This speaks to my ignorance and not the materials used, of course. One verb at a time...
The problem is exacerbated because the form that the verb expects often comes first in reading (or listening). In effect then, you need to become so familiar with it that you work from say a dative to the verb that needs it. That level of recognition would be no mean feat to achieve.
Wes Wood wrote:One verb at a time...
That's the start, then you're going to explore how those elements work together to make up sentences and phrases. One set of verbs in a sentence, then how the syntax level words help them work together, then the individual words, then you have the basics of Greek's working under some degree of control. More on that when we get back to the chemistry analogy...
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Wes Wood » January 19th, 2015, 5:08 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:I don't quite understand what you are saying here. I'm wary that you are understanding that the ἔτι refers to the continuation of blaming over a long time frame, which I don't think is true for those hypothetical real-life examples, or for this mooted point about learning music either. ἔτι is modifying something in the future, "still (in the same line of thought)", "going on further", "taking that further again to a hypothetical point".
I don't think my understanding or my example was correct. Maybe this will be an improvement on my earlier effort, "You wouldn't blame me for the previous things, why would you still blame me for other efforts that don't go quite as far as the others I spoke of but still provide you a way to get what you need." I am beginning to think that perhaps I may understand the word "still" differently than you. For example: "His mum gave him an apple for his Maths teacher, and another for his English teacher, and _still___ another for his Science teacher." Strangely, this is what I would say in this scenario, but only to the last item in a sequence. If it had more three, I would have said, another...another...another....and still another.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Just to be sure ... Are we agreed on the number of actions?
I think so. I count three different instances where he talks about being blamed.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I don't know why he doesn't say he will take him to the musician's studio to learn, but only point him on to it?
This is getting close to what I was originally thinking. I thought this last example was a slightly different category than the other two, because he directs him (I was thinking along the lines of walking to the building and saying, "Here you are.") to where he needs to go but does not ensure that he has success. To put it differently, my use of "still" here might be expressed better as "even then" which the text does not support, but my understanding of the word "still" does. This would also differ from my use of "still" in the example about apples above. I see your point and I think my imagination of distinctions that weren't intended along with my apparently flexible use of "still" all contributed to my misunderstanding. I don't know if this helps you understand what I was thinking, but I am confident I understand what you were meaning now.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 20th, 2015, 1:33 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I don't quite understand what you are saying here. I'm wary that you are understanding that the ἔτι refers to the continuation of blaming over a long time frame, which I don't think is true for those hypothetical real-life examples, or for this mooted point about learning music either. ἔτι is modifying something in the future, "still (in the same line of thought)", "going on further", "taking that further again to a hypothetical point".
I don't think my understanding or my example was correct. Maybe this will be an improvement on my earlier effort, "You wouldn't blame me for the previous things, why would you still blame me for other efforts that don't go quite as far as the others I spoke of but still provide you a way to get what you need." I am beginning to think that perhaps I may understand the word "still" differently than you. For example: "His mum gave him an apple for his Maths teacher, and another for his English teacher, and _still___ another for his Science teacher." Strangely, this is what I would say in this scenario, but only to the last item in a sequence. If it had more three, I would have said, another...another...another....and still another.
The use of these little words often vary from speaker to speaker in English, hence the patient / extended opportunity for self exploration in English. I would put "yet another apple" in that blank.
Wes Wood wrote:I see your point and I think my imagination of distinctions that weren't intended along with my apparently flexible use of "still" all contributed to my misunderstanding. I don't know if this helps you understand what I was thinking, but I am confident I understand what you were meaning now.
It seems flexible, because your understanding of the Greek word is beginning to exceed the help give by glosses. Waffle-mouthed as I tend to be, I'm not the best person suited to giving you a conspectus of the usages of ἔτι, but let's at least look at New Testament examples.

A single example of ἔτι, not in a sequence of three with μέμφεσθαι can be found at:
9:19 wrote:Ἐρεῖς οὖν μοι, Τί ἔτι μέμφεται; "Why does he still find fault?" Τῷ γὰρ βουλήματι αὐτοῦ τίς ἀνθέστηκεν;
That is one New Testament use of ἔτι which is quite close to this one in Xenophon, but it doesn't really give us a clue as to whether μέμφεσθαι is a attitude or an action. The phrase αἰτίαν εὑρίσκειν ἐν τινί, "find a basis for a charge" is obviously a time by time thing, because individual things are looked for.
Matthew 26:65 wrote:Τότε ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς διέρρηξεν τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτοῦ, λέγων ὅτι Ἐβλασφήμησεν· τί ἔτι χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; Ἴδε, νῦν ἠκούσατε τὴν βλασφημίαν αὐτοῦ.
Does this mean that there was no need of witnesses because he had confessed, or that there was no need of further witnesses to be called? It comes down to the understanding of ἔτι. Witnesses are individual people, who speak in turn or from their own point of view (theoretically at least). If the sentence did not have ἔτι, it would be τί ... χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; Why do we need witnesses? (at all) ( = His own testimony is enough). With the ἔτι, the question τί ἔτι χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; refers to the need to call and listen to further witnesses. Off topic a little - by now you'll have long since spent your anger at my diversions - if there is a distinction to be made between the "need" of χρείαν ἔχειν and the "need" of ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστιν, it would be that χρείαν ἔχειν would mean "we don't have enough", and ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστιν "we are required to", "we are under compulsion to". Bearing in mind that distinction, the τί ἔτι χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων; We have enough witnesses (a witness being a witness and the prisoner / defendant not classed as a witness), i.e. we don't have need of more is best expressed as it has been. The obvious question then is whether ἔτι goes with χρείαν ἔχομεν which would be continuous, or with χρείαν ἔχομεν μαρτύρων which would be one-by-one.
Matthew 18:16 wrote:ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἀκούσῃ, παράλαβε μετὰ σοῦ ἔτι ἕνα ἢ δύο, ἵνα ἐπὶ στόματος δύο μαρτύρων ἢ τριῶν σταθῇ πᾶν ῥῆμα·
This is another similar example. In addition to yourself, is the basic meaning.

The most common meaning is an action which goes on, as in the first example here:
Mark 5:35 wrote:Ἔτι αὐτοῦ λαλοῦντος, ἔρχονται ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀρχισυναγώγου, λέγοντες ὅτι Ἡ θυγάτηρ σου ἀπέθανεν· τί ἔτι σκύλλεις τὸν διδάσκαλον;
The description of an ongoing action, and an action that doesn't need to go on after now.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 23rd, 2015, 1:24 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Estate manager, Chapter 2, Section 16 wrote:οὐδὲν ἂν δικαίως γε, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἐγὼ τοίνυν σοι δείξω, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, ὅσα νῦν λιπαρεῖς παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ μανθάνειν πολὺ ἄλλους ἐμοῦ δεινοτέρους [τοὺς] περὶ ταῦτα. ὁμολογῶ δὲ μεμεληκέναι μοι οἵτινες ἕκαστα ἐπιστημονέστατοί εἰσι τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει.
“I could find no fault justly, Socrates.”

I will therefore show you, Kritoboulus, that for all the things you now insist on learning from me [there are] many others [who] are more skillful in these areas [than I am]. But I confess that I have taken an interest in knowing (or finding) each of those who are the most knowledgeable of the people throughout the city.
δείξω - we discussed this word at length up the thread a bit. Here, this is show as in point, not show as in prove reasonably.
ἕκαστα - each of those - for each of the various professions / arts / trades / specialty stores / anything really ...
Wes Wood wrote:I confess that the part in bold is my attempt at a translation of a word I do not yet understand. It has wrapped itself around my head, but I have not yet begun to wrap my head around it. :?
It seems you have acquired some of my metaphorical style, but have brought your wit and level-headedness to it. Anyway, which word has got your line of inquiry chasing its tail - ὁμολογῶ or μεμεληκέναι? Let me say a little about both of them to say a to-and-fro.
ὁμολογεῖν - This word seems to be used as a suggestion, rather than a recognition of then agreement with another's perception etc. here. I think that if that is the point that is causing you difficulty, the answer is that that word used with that sense is dependent on the particular usage, not the word itself.
μεμεληκέναι μοι {εἰδέναι} - is the impersonal μέλει μοι (+inf.) which has been accommodated to the syntax required after the verb of speaking - ὁμολογεῖν. Presumably, the tense is something like, "it has (long) been an interest of mine to {know} and now I do know.".
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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