Xen. Oec., 3.3 - SGH's comments on WW's initial notes, grammatical notes and rendering into English.
Wes Wood wrote:Xenophon, Oeconomicus, Chapter 3, Section 3 wrote:ἄλλο τι οὖν τούτων ἐστίν, ὦ Σώκρατες, αἴτιον ἢ ὅτι τοῖς μὲν ὅπου ἔτυχεν ἕκαστον καταβέβληται, τοῖς δὲ ἐν χώρᾳ ἕκαστα τεταγμένα κεῖται; ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης: καὶ οὐδ᾽ ἐν χώρᾳ γ᾽ ἐν ᾗ ἔτυχεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνθα προσήκει, ἕκαστα διατέτακται. λέγειν τί μοι δοκεῖς, ἔφη, καὶ τοῦτο, ὁ Κριτόβουλος, τῶν οἰκονομικῶν.
“What other reason is there
??for
?? these things, Socrates, but that those who aren’t able to use their possessions have laid them down wherever it happened to be convenient for them [and then can’t find them when the need arises?] but those who have their possessions ready to use have placed each of them in a designated place [so that they might easily access them should the need arise?]?”
“Yes, you are absolutely correct,” Socrates said,
“the reason for the difference is that for those who are prepared everything has been arranged in a specific place and not in the place that was convenient at the time. Have you reversed the senses here?
“What you seem to me to be saying,” Kritoboulus said, “is that this is also one of the works of stewardship.
Let's consider what the effect of putting the αἴτιον on the other side of the vocative ὦ Σώκρατες might be. In the diction, it places it near the ἢ rather than the τούτων. I guess there appears to be two ways to take τούτων - with the αἴτιον or with the ἄλλο τι. In some cases ἄλλο could take a genitive with the sense of "of a sort other than these", but that wouldn't do for the sense here. placement of the τούτων ἐστίν, ..., αἴτιον on either side of the copula is stylistic and beautiful. So the ἄλλο τι is reasonably taken with the ἢ "what else is the cause (other) than that ... (followed by verbal phrases)".
What do you make of the datives here in τοῖς μὲν ..., τοῖς δὲ ... ? I take them as something like going with an understood the impersonals χαλεπόν ἐστι and ῥᾴδιόν ἐστι - both plus some relevant infinitive such as εὑρεῖν or χρῆσθαι.
ἕκαστον is nominative the subject καταβέβληται and the understood subject of ἔτυχεν.
χώρα - used in the sense of
proper or
special place. I'm not sure if I've got the sense of the difference between τόπος and χώρα, but I think that generally speaking it is that χώρα is the
space within which, while τόπος is the
space at or
upon which.
οὐδ᾽ ἐν χώρᾳ γ᾽ ἐν ᾗ ἔτυχεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνθα προσήκει - οὐ ..., ἀλλ᾽ ... - not ... but rather ... -
ἔνθα προσήκει - where it belongs. The difference between ἔνθα and ὅπου seems to be the matter of definiteness. ἔνθα refers to one particular place as a relative "where", and ὅπου refers to any number of places depending on the needs of the moment in grammar. Matthew 6:19 Μὴ θησαυρίζετε ὑμῖν θησαυροὺς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὅπου σὴς καὶ βρῶσις ἀφανίζει, καὶ ὅπου κλέπται διορύσσουσιν καὶ κλέπτουσιν· It doesn't matter where on earth you lay up wealth, the moth, rust and thieves can get to it. vs. John 4:15 μηδὲ ἔρχομαι ἐνθάδε ἀντλεῖν. i.e to this very well that she and Jesus are standing next to.
καὶ οὐδ᾽ ἐν χώρᾳ γ᾽ ἐν ᾗ ἔτυχεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνθα προσήκει, ἕκαστα διατέτακται - I take this as chiastic - χώρα doesn't seem to be being used in the special sense by Socrates. And not in the place in which it happened to be, but rather all things have been arranged where they are supposed to be.
Wes Wood wrote:Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18607
Grammatical Hints:
τοῖς μὲν: This is a dative of respect and refers to those previously mentioned who do not have their possessions ready to use.
ἕκαστον: This is the subject of the verb of the verb “καταβέβληται”. Objects don’t place themselves so this is a passive.
ὅπου ἔτυχεν: I see here a contrast between “where it happens to be” and “τεταγμένα” used later “where it has been assigned”. Objects don’t roam around (typically) so what I envision by this phrase is that someone has misplaced an object or has been careless about where it has been placed. I am obviously straying into interpretation here.
τοῖς δὲ: This is a dative of respect and refers to those previously mentioned who have their possessions ready to use.
ἕκαστα...κεῖται: Plural neuter subject with a singular verb
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽: A strong affirmative. I admit that I am unsure that my translation is the best way to bring it out and am even less certain that I have made clear the connection between what had been said and what Socrates is agreeing with.
ἕκαστα διατέτακται: Plural neuter subject with a singular verb. I think this is the main reason for the strong affirmative (the main reason for the latter groups success?).
λέγειν τί μοι δοκεῖς: “δοκεῖς” this verb may take a dative of person and a present infinitive and this is what we have here. This corresponds neatly to a familiar English phrase when rearranged to follow the constituent order above. “τί δοκεῖς μοι λέγειν” “what you seem to me to say”. One thing that may be helpful to remember is that forms of δοκεῖν often take an infinitive.
καὶ τοῦτο...τῶν οἰκονομικῶν: perhaps and this (arranging things thoughtfully)...[is] one of the things practiced in household management” I personally prefer something like “one of the tasks of a steward.”
It needs some sort of interpretation like that, yes. Personally, I would like to supply the sense of a περί
Hints:
ἄλλο τι...ἢ: The part of this phrase before the ellipsis can be used to introduce a question independently with the sense “is it not.” In this case, the whole phrase might be paraphrased “Is the reason for these things anything other than...”
αἴτιον: reason, cause
ἔτυχεν: where it happened to be
καταβέβληται: has been put down
- where it is as your hand moves away from it
χώρᾳ: in place
(special or designated place)
τεταγμένα: has been arranged
ἔνθα: where
προσήκει: it belongs
this doesn't seem to have come through clearly into your rendering
διατέτακται:
it has been designated - I think there is an added sense of severally or each one differently from the δια- suffix, other than that, it is the normal sense of arrange, i.e. I don't think looking for the meaning in LSJ is enough in this case, it needs to be thought through a little as well.