Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

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Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 15 wrote:νομίζω δὲ γυναῖκα κοινωνὸν ἀγαθὴν οἴκου οὖσαν πάνυ ἀντίρροπον εἶναι τῷ ἀνδρὶ ἐπὶ τὸ ἀγαθόν. ἔρχεται μὲν γὰρ εἰς τὴν οἰκίαν διὰ τῶν τοῦ ἀνδρὸς πράξεων τὰ κτήματα ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ πολύ, δαπανᾶται δὲ διὰ τῶν τῆς γυναικὸς ταμιευμάτων τὰ πλεῖστα: καὶ εὖ μὲν τούτων γιγνομένων αὔξονται οἱ οἶκοι, κακῶς δὲ τούτων πραττομένων οἱ οἶκοι μειοῦνται.
"But I think a wife who is a good partner is just as responsible for the good of the household as her husband is. For indeed possessions come into the household mostly because of the husband’s transactions, but most of those goods are used up by the wife. Their household will increase if they both manage their resources properly, but their household will diminish if one of them manages those resources poorly."

Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =10#p18619

Grammatical Hints:
This section is far easier for me to understand than to explain, but I will take a stab at it.
νομίζω:This verb may take both an accusative and an infinitive. I think that is what is going on here. The accusative is γυναῖκα and the infinitive is εἶναι.
κοινωνὸν ἀγαθὴν οἴκου οὖσαν: I believe this phrase is modifying γυναῖκα. This isn’t just any wife, but a wife who is a good partner for the household.
πάνυ ἀντίρροπον εἶναι τῷ ἀνδρὶ: The first hint established that this infinitive is linked to the initial verb. The context of this infinitive requires and accusative and a dative. The accusative is ἀντίρροπον and the dative is τῷ ἀνδρὶ. I think this phrase means something like “very equal to the husband.” This isn’t very good English, but I leave it to the reader to resolve this issue to his or her satisfaction.
ἐπὶ τὸ ἀγαθόν: I considered rendering the first sentence loosely as “I consider a woman who balances out her husband to be a good partner for the household and a blessing to him.” I think that what is truly intended is that husband and wife equally contribute to the good of their household.
ἔρχεται: The subject of this verb is going to be an neuter plural.
μὲν τὰ κτήματα εἰς τὴν οἰκίαν διὰ τῶν πράξεων τοῦ ἀνδρὸς δὲ τὰ κτήματα δαπανᾶται τὰ πλεῖστα τῶν ταμιευμάτων τῆς γυναικὸς: Look at this if you happen to get stuck.
εὖ: This adverb likely goes with γιγνομένων.
τούτων γιγνομένων: “These things happening” I understand this phrase to be saying, “If both the husband and the wife play their part well.”
κακῶς δὲ τούτων πραττομένων: “Managing these resources poorly” I take this to be the opposite of the previous hint. I have taken some liberty to show what I believe the speaker is getting at. A household cannot increase if even one person is wasteful beyond a certain point. Notice this contrast along with the μὲν...δὲ structure.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 16 wrote:οἶμαι δέ σοι καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιστημῶν τοὺς ἀξίως λόγου ἑκάστην ἐργαζομένους ἔχειν ἂν ἐπιδεῖξαί σοι, εἰ τι προσδεῖσθαι νομίζεις.
"But I suppose I am able to show you each of the craftsmen whose work distinguishes them from their peers, if there is still something you want to know about one of the trades."

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =10#p18620

Grammatical Hints:
οἶμαι: This verb expects an infinitive here.
τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιστημῶν: “from the other craftsmen”
τοὺς ἀξίως λόγου ἑκάστην ἐργαζομένους: specifically those “from the other craftsmen” “who practice each trade in a manner that is worthy of consideration”
ἔχειν: This infinitive can take a meaning of “to be able” and expect another infinitive.
ἐπιδεῖξαί: This infinitive takes...a dative, for a change.
νομίζεις: acc. + inf.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Xen. Oec., 3.3 - SGH's comments on WW's initial notes, grammatical notes and rendering into English.
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Oeconomicus, Chapter 3, Section 3 wrote:ἄλλο τι οὖν τούτων ἐστίν, ὦ Σώκρατες, αἴτιον ἢ ὅτι τοῖς μὲν ὅπου ἔτυχεν ἕκαστον καταβέβληται, τοῖς δὲ ἐν χώρᾳ ἕκαστα τεταγμένα κεῖται; ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης: καὶ οὐδ᾽ ἐν χώρᾳ γ᾽ ἐν ᾗ ἔτυχεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνθα προσήκει, ἕκαστα διατέτακται. λέγειν τί μοι δοκεῖς, ἔφη, καὶ τοῦτο, ὁ Κριτόβουλος, τῶν οἰκονομικῶν.
“What other reason is there ??for?? these things, Socrates, but that those who aren’t able to use their possessions have laid them down wherever it happened to be convenient for them [and then can’t find them when the need arises?] but those who have their possessions ready to use have placed each of them in a designated place [so that they might easily access them should the need arise?]?”

“Yes, you are absolutely correct,” Socrates said, “the reason for the difference is that for those who are prepared everything has been arranged in a specific place and not in the place that was convenient at the time. Have you reversed the senses here?

“What you seem to me to be saying,” Kritoboulus said, “is that this is also one of the works of stewardship.
Let's consider what the effect of putting the αἴτιον on the other side of the vocative ὦ Σώκρατες might be. In the diction, it places it near the ἢ rather than the τούτων. I guess there appears to be two ways to take τούτων - with the αἴτιον or with the ἄλλο τι. In some cases ἄλλο could take a genitive with the sense of "of a sort other than these", but that wouldn't do for the sense here. placement of the τούτων ἐστίν, ..., αἴτιον on either side of the copula is stylistic and beautiful. So the ἄλλο τι is reasonably taken with the ἢ "what else is the cause (other) than that ... (followed by verbal phrases)".

What do you make of the datives here in τοῖς μὲν ..., τοῖς δὲ ... ? I take them as something like going with an understood the impersonals χαλεπόν ἐστι and ῥᾴδιόν ἐστι - both plus some relevant infinitive such as εὑρεῖν or χρῆσθαι.
ἕκαστον is nominative the subject καταβέβληται and the understood subject of ἔτυχεν.
χώρα - used in the sense of proper or special place. I'm not sure if I've got the sense of the difference between τόπος and χώρα, but I think that generally speaking it is that χώρα is the space within which, while τόπος is the space at or upon which.
οὐδ᾽ ἐν χώρᾳ γ᾽ ἐν ᾗ ἔτυχεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνθα προσήκει - οὐ ..., ἀλλ᾽ ... - not ... but rather ... -
ἔνθα προσήκει - where it belongs. The difference between ἔνθα and ὅπου seems to be the matter of definiteness. ἔνθα refers to one particular place as a relative "where", and ὅπου refers to any number of places depending on the needs of the moment in grammar. Matthew 6:19 Μὴ θησαυρίζετε ὑμῖν θησαυροὺς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὅπου σὴς καὶ βρῶσις ἀφανίζει, καὶ ὅπου κλέπται διορύσσουσιν καὶ κλέπτουσιν· It doesn't matter where on earth you lay up wealth, the moth, rust and thieves can get to it. vs. John 4:15 μηδὲ ἔρχομαι ἐνθάδε ἀντλεῖν. i.e to this very well that she and Jesus are standing next to.
καὶ οὐδ᾽ ἐν χώρᾳ γ᾽ ἐν ᾗ ἔτυχεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνθα προσήκει, ἕκαστα διατέτακται - I take this as chiastic - χώρα doesn't seem to be being used in the special sense by Socrates. And not in the place in which it happened to be, but rather all things have been arranged where they are supposed to be.

Wes Wood wrote:Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18607

Grammatical Hints:
τοῖς μὲν: This is a dative of respect and refers to those previously mentioned who do not have their possessions ready to use.
ἕκαστον: This is the subject of the verb of the verb “καταβέβληται”. Objects don’t place themselves so this is a passive.
ὅπου ἔτυχεν: I see here a contrast between “where it happens to be” and “τεταγμένα” used later “where it has been assigned”. Objects don’t roam around (typically) so what I envision by this phrase is that someone has misplaced an object or has been careless about where it has been placed. I am obviously straying into interpretation here.
τοῖς δὲ: This is a dative of respect and refers to those previously mentioned who have their possessions ready to use.
ἕκαστα...κεῖται: Plural neuter subject with a singular verb
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽: A strong affirmative. I admit that I am unsure that my translation is the best way to bring it out and am even less certain that I have made clear the connection between what had been said and what Socrates is agreeing with.
ἕκαστα διατέτακται: Plural neuter subject with a singular verb. I think this is the main reason for the strong affirmative (the main reason for the latter groups success?).
λέγειν τί μοι δοκεῖς: “δοκεῖς” this verb may take a dative of person and a present infinitive and this is what we have here. This corresponds neatly to a familiar English phrase when rearranged to follow the constituent order above. “τί δοκεῖς μοι λέγειν” “what you seem to me to say”. One thing that may be helpful to remember is that forms of δοκεῖν often take an infinitive.
καὶ τοῦτο...τῶν οἰκονομικῶν: perhaps and this (arranging things thoughtfully)...[is] one of the things practiced in household management” I personally prefer something like “one of the tasks of a steward.” It needs some sort of interpretation like that, yes. Personally, I would like to supply the sense of a περί
Hints:
ἄλλο τι...ἢ: The part of this phrase before the ellipsis can be used to introduce a question independently with the sense “is it not.” In this case, the whole phrase might be paraphrased “Is the reason for these things anything other than...”
αἴτιον: reason, cause
ἔτυχεν: where it happened to be
καταβέβληται: has been put down - where it is as your hand moves away from it
χώρᾳ: in place (special or designated place)
τεταγμένα: has been arranged
ἔνθα: where
προσήκει: it belongs this doesn't seem to have come through clearly into your rendering
διατέτακται: it has been designated - I think there is an added sense of severally or each one differently from the δια- suffix, other than that, it is the normal sense of arrange, i.e. I don't think looking for the meaning in LSJ is enough in this case, it needs to be thought through a little as well.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 4 wrote:τί οὖν, ἄν σοι, ἔφη, καὶ οἰκέτας αὖ ἐπιδεικνύω ἔνθα μὲν πάντας ὡς εἰπεῖν δεδεμένους, καὶ τούτους θαμινὰ ἀποδιδράσκοντας, ἔνθα δὲ λελυμένους καὶ ἐθέλοντάς τε ἐργάζεσθαι καὶ παραμένειν, οὐ καὶ τοῦτό σοι δόξω ἀξιοθέατον τῆς οἰκονομίας ἔργον ἐπιδεικνύναι; ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος, καὶ σφόδρα γε.
He continued, “then what if in addition [to these things] I also show you household slaves both in places where all of the slaves (more or less) are kept in chains and escape even though they are closely guarded, and also in places where they are free from chains and are willing to work [for] and to remain [with] [their master]? If I show you this also, I will seem to be showing you a task of stewardship that is well worth seeing, won’t I?"

“Yes, absolutely,” said Kritoboulus. “[You] most certainly [will be] indeed.

  • ἄν ... ἐπιδεικνύω - what mood is this? I take it as subjunctive.
  • θαμινὰ: confinement? This refers to time not space - though of course there is an arguable relationship between time and space. I suppose that if many events were confined into the one time frame you would have it. "often" is a better rendering. "Those (the ones just mentioned) often run away"
    ἀποδιδράσκοντας: who run away There is a special word to describe this -σκ- ending verb-type. It used to be called a type-V verb in one of the 19th century grammars I have looked at. (Sorry to be vague, but terminology is a game I always loose at, so I won't even attempt to bluff at it) It designates that an action is done repeatedly. Does any remember what it is called?
  • παραμένειν: remain at home seems to mean stay even though there is the option to not remain. You could compare James 1:26 Ὁ δὲ παρακύψας εἰς νόμον τέλειον τὸν τῆς ἐλευθερίας καὶ παραμείνας, οὗτος οὐκ ἀκροατὴς ἐπιλησμονῆς γενόμενος ἀλλὰ ποιητὴς ἔργου, οὗτος μακάριος ἐν τῇ ποιήσει αὐτοῦ ἔσται. That sense could also fit the context of 1 Corinthians 16:6 and Pilemon 25. If that is the sense "remain by choice (not compulsion)", then Hebrews 7:23 could be rendered as "were hindered from continuing by death (nuance: but they wanted to).
  • τοῦτό - you are taking this as a double accusative with ἐπιδεικνύναι. I would prefer to take it as an accusative of respect "in this regard (also) would I seem to you to be showing you a work of stewardship worth looking at." But the understanding is pretty much the same either way.


Original HInts:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18608

Grammatical Hints:
ἔνθα μὲν... ἔνθα δὲ: I made a typo on my earlier hint; I meant to type “where” instead of “there”. Additionally, I had to really fight myself to not translate “οἰκέτας” as households. Is that a way that house-slaves were referred to in your state before the civil war? Instead, in my translation I expanded a bit on “ἔνθα” as “in the places where”. The focus in each of the ἔνθα phrases is on the different conditions in which the slaves are kept. The implication is that different households treat their slaves differently-some keep them under lock and key and some give them more freedom.
ὡς εἰπεῖν: I took this as a parenthetical expression used to “soften” or “weaken” an absolute. Which word do you think it affects?
θαμινὰ: I am not confident that I have gotten either this hint or the previous one right. I am understanding it as roughly equivalent to the word “close” in the phrase “keeping a close eye on them”. I expect that I will be corrected on this point. vide supra
ἐθέλοντάς τε ἐργάζεσθαι καὶ παραμένειν: This phrase refers to the slaves who have been given greater freedoms, but I am unsure whether it refers to working inside the home and remaining there, don't put too much stake on the at home part of the meaning if it refers to working outside of the home and returning there (and thereby remain at home), or if it perhaps encompasses all of these ideas imaginative. I have translated this phrase to bring out what I believe is the major idea: the slaves who are given greater freedom still do their master’s bidding I don't think it is being portrayed as cause and effect - in modern terms, there is a lot to getting a freer style office to work together for the better, rather than a top-down hierarchical office / work-place.
οὐ καὶ τοῦτό σοι δόξω ἀξιοθέατον τῆς οἰκονομίας ἔργον ἐπιδεικνύναι;: What answer was the speaker of this question expecting? It expects a positive answer - Is that your hint or your question? It is rather less verbose and apologetic / uncertain than your actual questions (directed at me, as supposedly knowledgeable interlocutor usually are, but just to be sure, I will answer it anyway.
καὶ τοῦτό: The previous information was deemed to be an acceptable demonstration of his claim. The question in the sentence above is whether or not the new information being put forward will be acceptable as well. What?
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽: A strong affirmative. In archaic English: “Yes, by Jove.” (This makes me think of The Once and Future King.) One of the effects of the renaissance was an increase in awareness at least of the pagan deities. So far as I've read, the text handled in the Byzantine world were used as examples without so much use of the pagan elements. It is probably not so much archaic English as it is adopting the mind-set of the authour's read.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 5 wrote:ἂν δὲ καὶ παραπλησίους γεωργίας γεωργοῦντας, τοὺς μὲν ἀπολωλέναι φάσκοντας ὑπὸ γεωργίας καὶ ἀποροῦντας, τοὺς δὲ ἀφθόνως καὶ καλῶς πάντα ἔχοντας ὅσων δέονται ἀπὸ τῆς γεωργίας; ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος. ἴσως γὰρ ἀναλίσκουσιν οὐκ εἰς ἃ δεῖ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ εἰς ἃ βλάβην φέρει αὐτῷ καὶ τῷ οἴκῳ.
“And if also men who are cultivating farms of the same size and quality, some claim to have been destroyed by farming and are in poverty but others have abundantly and well [in hand] all the things that they might need from their farm?”

“Yes, most certainly,” Kritoboulus said. “For those who are at a loss probably spend money not only for the things that are necessary but also for the things which bring harm to them and to their households.

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18609

Grammatical Hints:
ἂν δὲ καὶ: Here Socrates is asking if another illustration would be adequate to fulfill Kritoboulus’s request. What verb should you supply for this construction? γεωργοῦντας??
παραπλησίους: I had originally glossed this as “the same size”, but when I revisited my notes I noticed my folly. Size isn’t everything on a farm. You must also take into consideration the composition of the land. My translation reflects that understanding. (Warning unnecessary illustration ahead; skip if desired) [My parents own land with many different features. About thirty acres of that land is riddled with ravines more than forty feet deep in various places with a living spring that creates a small stream that runs over, cuts through, and, in some places, goes under the land itself. It would be impossible to try to farm that. On the other hand, they also own land that is flat enough to make some suspect that they are wasting it by not planting on it. What those people don’t realize is that some of that land was once part of an ancient seabed (oh, alright: it was a bay of the Gulf of Mexico) and has a mixture of both sand and clay hidden by just a few inches of workable top soil. You could grow things there if you truly wished to, but it most likely wouldn’t be worth your effort. Finally, they have fertile soil that they do farm. It provides a predictable source of income year after year and a haven for all manner of wildlife. If you were to have equal amounts of these three types of land, you would have radically different success rates. In some instances, regardless of the skill of the farmer. (For the record, these differences have always made me most curious, because I can’t divine what the forces would have been that would have created such differences within such relatively short geographical boundaries to account for the information I just shared, all of which I know to be scientific truth. For those who might be interested look google “Coon Creek” fossils and “Mississippi Embayment”.)]
τοὺς μὲν ἀπολωλέναι...τοὺς δὲ ἔχοντας ὅσων δέονται: notice the two different groups and the contrast being made between them.
ἀποροῦντας: This would have been better glossed in the earlier hints as “are in poverty”.
ἀφθόνως and καλῶς: These are adverbs. The meaning of ἀφθόνως is not so intuitive, so a nudge in the right direction could help.
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽: A strong affirmative. In archaic English: “Yes, by Jove.” I would say “see the note from the previous section,” but I hate it when something says that.
ἴσως: I think this is much better understood as “perhaps”. In my first hint I understood the text as stating that they spent money as freely on unnecessary things as on the things that are necessary. I think this is closer to what was intended.
ἀναλίσκουσιν: I think the best way to think of this as you are trying to go through this ending sections is “they spend money”. It isn’t wasteful to use money for necessities. Money is spent for a purpose...
ἀναλίσκουσιν οὐκ μόνον...ἀλλὰ καὶ: There are two different categories here. In the phrase οὐκ εἰς ἃ δεῖ μόνον, the εἰς ἃ δεῖ is brought forward for emphasis. Is ἀναλίσκειν regularly used with εἰς?
εἰς ἃ: If you are having trouble with this, read the last two hints again carefully.
βλάβην: Would you expect this to be the subject or object? Why?" That is an involved question. Could you give hints?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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