Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
Forum rules
This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Stephen Hughes wrote:τούτοις ... μὴ ἔχοντας χρῆσθαι, the ταῦτα (i.e. the ἔπιπλα) is dative with χρῆσθαι.
Are you saying that the dative "τούτοις" should be an an accusative, but the case is attracted to the infinitive "χρῆσθαι" (which requires a dative) so it became a dative? Have I misunderstood you?
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 8 wrote: σαυτῷ δὲ πολὺ νὴ Δί᾽, ἔφη, γελοιότερος. ἂν δὲ καὶ ἀφ᾽ ἱππικῆς σοι ἐπιδεικνύω τοὺς μὲν εἰς ἀπορίαν τῶν ἐπιτηδείων ἐληλυθότας, τοὺς δὲ διὰ τὴν ἱππικὴν καὶ πάνυ εὐπόρους ὄντας καὶ ἅμα ἀγαλλομένους ἐπὶ τῷ κέρδει; οὐκοῦν τούτους μὲν καὶ ἐγὼ ὁρῶ καὶ οἶδα ἑκατέρους, καὶ οὐδέν τι μᾶλλον τῶν κερδαινόντων γίγνομαι.

“Yes, but [you are] certainly much more ridiculous to yourself,” he replied.

“And if I also show you that some who raise horses lose everything that they have but others become very well-off because of them and at the same time delight in that wealth?”

“Certainly I see these things and know about each of them. I will not profit from one more word on the subject.”

Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18612

Grammatical Hints:
νὴ Δί᾽: This, again, is a strong affirmation, but there is also a comparative γελοιότερος. I am not sure whether these phrases are best understood as “I think you are very ridiculous, but you think that you are *absolutely* ridiculous” or as “You think that you are more ridiculous.” In other words, I am unsure if the comparative reduces this affirmation or if this affirmation strengthens the comparative. I suppose some would say it doesn’t matter.
ἂν δὲ καὶ ἀφ᾽ ἱππικῆς σοι ἐπιδεικνύω τοὺς μὲν... τοὺς δὲ: But if I show you two different outcomes for those who raise horses.
γίγνομαι: This verb may expect a genitive. “Become one of the...”
τῶν κερδαινόντων: I took this as “one of the people who profit.” I rendered this last phrase loosely according to my personal preference.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:τούτοις ... μὴ ἔχοντας χρῆσθαι, the ταῦτα (i.e. the ἔπιπλα) is dative χρῆσθαιith χρῆσθαι.
Are you saying that the dative "τούτοις" should be an an accusative, but the case is attracted to the infinitive "χρῆσθαι" (which requires a dative) so it became a dative? Have I misunderstood you?
Spear-fishing: You see the image of the fish created by the situation (refraction), while the "real" image of the fish is hidden by the situation.
This construction: The accusative required by the (main) verb "to have" is not seen, but the dative that the infinitive, which surrounds it, requires is.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Stephen Hughes wrote:Spear-fishing: You see the image of the fish created by the situation (refraction), while the "real" image of the fish is hidden by the situation.
This construction: The accusative required by the (main) verb "to have" is not seen, but the dative that the infinitive, which surrounds it, requires is.
Ah, okay! This completely clears that up. I knew which one required the dative, but I didn't think about having to supply what was needed. I was thinking only in terms of having the single word do double duty. Now, I follow you. :)
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 9 wrote: θεᾷ γὰρ αὐτοὺς ᾗπερ τοὺς τραγῳδούς τε καὶ κωμῳδούς, οὐχ ὅπως ποιητὴς οἴομαι γένῃ, ἀλλ᾽ ὅπως ἡσθῇς ἰδών τι ἢ ἀκούσας: καὶ ταῦτα μὲν ἴσως οὕτως ὀρθῶς ἔχει (οὐ γὰρ ποιητὴς βούλει γενέσθαι), ἱππικῇ δ᾽ ἀναγκαζόμενος χρῆσθαι οὐ μῶρος οἴει εἶναι εἰ μὴ σκοπεῖς ὅπως μὴ ἰδιώτης ἔσει τούτου τοῦ ἔργου, ἄλλως τε καὶ τῶν αὐτῶν ἵππων ἀγαθῶν εἴς τε τὴν χρῆσιν καὶ κερδαλέων εἰς πώλησιν ὄντων;
"For you watch both the tragedies and the comedies in the same way you would watch or listen to something for entertainment, not in such a way that I might think you were going to become a playwright. And you correctly hold these things in the same regard (for you do not wish to become a playwright). But since you are forced to raise horses, you would consider yourself to be stupid if you did not consider how to avoid entering this profession ignorant of the trade, wouldn’t you? Especially since the same horses are both good for use and profitable to sell."

Revisions to the Original Hints:
θεᾷ: by viewing This should be “you watched.” Twas a terrible hint.
ποιητὴς: author (of plays) or playwright in light of the context
ἱππικῇ: raising horses (I take this as the profession of raising horses for use, racing, breeding, or general profit. I don’t know if the word fully supports all of these ideas, though.)
οἴει: I believe this can be determined for from the hint above.
ἔσει: this lexical form is εἴσειμι here its meaning will fairly well match the sum of its parts εἴσ + ειμι

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18613

Grammatical Hints:
θεᾷ γὰρ αὐτοὺς ᾗπερ τοὺς τραγῳδούς τε καὶ κωμῳδούς: I see “αὐτοὺς” serving to introduce a generic idea, an ephemeral “them,” which is fleshed out by both “τε” the tragedies “τοὺς τραγῳδούς” and “καὶ” the comedies “κωμῳδούς.” Also, notice that both tragedies and comedies are governed by one article.
οὐχ ὅπως... ἀλλ᾽ ὅπως: (not as though γένῃ ποιητὴς)...(but as though ἡσθῇς ἰδών ἢ ἀκούσας τι)
καὶ ταῦτα μὲν ἴσως οὕτως ὀρθῶς ἔχει: This is a tough phrase for me; I am not sure that I have it exactly right. For fear of creating more confusion, I will explain what I have done and not what my own specific reservations are. I took “ἔχει” as “you hold” with “ταῦτα” as the object of this verb. I then treated both “ἴσως” and “ὀρθῶς” as adverbs where the latter describes the former as is indicated by “οὕτως”. Putting all these elements together I got: “You indeed (μὲν) hold these things in the same way thus: correctly.” I am not satisfied with this.
χρῆσθαι: What form does this infinitive require here?
οἴει: What form does this verb expect here?
εἶναι: What form does this infinitive expect here?
οὐ: This negative indicates that a question is being asked and also indicates that a certain answer is expected. What is that answer?
εἰ μὴ σκοπεῖς ὅπως: This phrase introduces an exception to the previous prhase “οὐ μῶρος οἴει εἶναι” . The person would not be an idiot, if they do thus (ὅπως).
ἄλλως τε καὶ: (frequently found together as a phrase more literally rendered as “both otherwise and”) “especially” or “above all”
τῶν αὐτῶν ἵππων... ὄντων: The same horses are...both (τε)
(ἀγαθῶν εἴς τε τὴν χρῆσιν): and (καὶ)
(κερδαλέων εἰς πώλησιν)
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 10 wrote:πωλοδαμνεῖν με κελεύεις, ὦ Σώκρατες; οὐ μὰ Δί᾽ οὐδέν τι μᾶλλον ἢ καὶ γεωργοὺς ἐκ παιδίων ὠνούμενον κατασκευάζειν, ἀλλ᾽ εἶναί τινές μοι δοκοῦσιν ἡλικίαι καὶ ἵππων καὶ ἀνθρώπων, αἳ εὐθύς τε χρήσιμοί εἰσι καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον ἐπιδιδόασιν. ἔχω δ᾽ ἐπιδεῖξαι καὶ γυναιξὶ ταῖς γαμεταῖς τοὺς μὲν οὕτω χρωμένους ὥστε συνεργοὺς ἔχειν αὐτὰς εἰς τὸ συναύξειν τοὺς οἴκους, τοὺς δὲ ᾗ ὅτι πλεῖστον λυμαίνονται.
“Are you urging me to break in horses, Socrates?”

“Certainly not, no more than I would urge you to buy some young slaves and teach them how to farm. But it seems to me that there are some horses and men at a serviceable age that are both immediately useful and become even more useful. And I also have to point out to you that some husbands consult their wives in the same manner that they would consult their coworkers so that they might increase their households together, but others consult their wives and by doing so cause the greatest ruin to their households.”

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18614

Grammatical Hints:
οὐ μὰ Δί᾽: By now, phrases like these are likely becoming familiar. This is a strong negation.
οὐδέν τι μᾶλλον ἢ καὶ: I would not order you to to train horses any more than I would _______. I believe a verbal construction needs to be supplied here for sense. Which one fits?
κατασκευάζειν: If you supplied some version of κελεύειν in the hint above, you might expect to see a dative any more than I would order [you (as a dative)] and an infinitive such as this one. I think γεωργοὺς should be understood with this word. “To prepare farmers”
ἐκ παιδίων ὠνούμενον: Perhaps “when you by young slaves.” I don’t know if I am correct, but I think that the form of ὠνεῖσθαι plus the form of παίδιον is referring to the purchasing child slaves as opposed to hiring children workers.
δοκοῦσιν: I don’t think this is an impersonal construction here. I will give a different arrangement for understanding this in the hint immediately below.
τινές (καὶ ἵππων καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἡλικίαι) δοκοῦσιν εἶναί τε χρήσιμοί καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιον ἐπιδιδόασιν: There are some elements that have been glossed over, admittedly, but this should be adequate to grasp the sense.
ἐπιδεῖξαι: This verb is going to take the usual accusative. Note that two groups are in view as indicated by μεν...δε. In the second group you are going to have to supply an element to make sense of the construction.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 11 wrote:καὶ τούτου πότερα χρή, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸν ἄνδρα αἰτιᾶσθαι ἢ τὴν γυναῖκα; πρόβατον μέν, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ πολὺ ἂν κακῶς ἔχῃ, τὸν νομέα αἰτιώμεθα, καὶ ἵππος ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ πολὺ ἂν κακουργῇ, τὸν ἱππέα κακίζομεν: τῆς δὲ γυναικός, εἰ μὲν διδασκομένη ὑπὸ τοῦ ἀνδρὸς τἀγαθὰ κακοποιεῖ, ἴσως δικαίως ἂν ἡ γυνὴ τὴν αἰτίαν ἔχοι: εἰ δὲ μὴ διδάσκων τὰ καλὰ κἀγαθὰ ἀνεπιστήμονι τούτων χρῷτο, ἆρ᾽ οὐ δικαίως ἂν ὁ ἀνὴρ τὴν αἰτίαν ἔχοι;
“Socrates, which of these two should be blamed, the husband or the wife?”

Socrates replied, “Well, if a sheep becomes really sick, we generally blame the shepherd, and if a horse causes mayhem we assign most of the blame to the rider. As for the wife in an instance like this, if she has been adequately instructed by her husband and she makes a mistake, it is just that she bear the blame. But, on the other hand, if the husband does not adequately instruct his wife in the proper use of their possessions and she makes an ignorant mistake using them, then he justly bears the blame, doesn’t he?"

Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =10#p18615

Grammatical Hints:
τὰ καλὰ: This is one I am not sure I have rendered correctly. This is one of the definitions that LSJ gives, “τὰ καλά the proprieties or elegancies of life.” I glossed this as “proper use of their possessions.”

Maybe others will disagree, but I felt like the greatest hurdle this text presented was some of the unfamiliar vocabulary. I feel like most everything else can be unraveled with the hints I have already provided. I have revised my own translations ever so slightly, though, so the hints won't exactly match my renderings anymore. Hopefully, this effort won't be entirely inadequate for the task.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 12 wrote: πάντως δ᾽, ἔφη, ὦ Κριτόβουλε (φίλοι γάρ ἐσμεν οἱ παρόντες) ἀπαληθεῦσαι δεῖ πρὸς ἡμᾶς. ἔστιν ὅτῳ ἄλλῳ τῶν σπουδαίων πλείω ἐπιτρέπεις ἢ τῇ γυναικί; οὐδενί, ἔφη. ἔστι δὲ ὅτῳ ἐλάττονα διαλέγῃ ἢ τῇ γυναικί;

“Kritoboulus, it is important to tell us the truth-we are all friends here. Who do you consult more frequently than your wife when urgent matters arise?”

“No one,” he replied.

“Is there someone else you converse with less than your wife?”

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =10#p18616

Grammatical Hints:
(φίλοι γάρ ἐσμεν οἱ παρόντες) ἀπαληθεῦσαι δεῖ πρὸς ἡμᾶς.: δεῖ is going to need an infinitive. ἀπαληθεῦσαι is going to need an accusative. I must admit, I have puzzled over the admonition to be honest. I can’t see why it would be necessary to encourage him to tell the truth with these questions...
ἐπιτρέπεις: This verb in this context will need a dative to complete it.
πλείω...ἢ: This is making a comparison between ὅτῳ ἄλλῳ and whom? It may help to think about what verb is implied with this construction for the comparison to make sense.
διαλέγῃ: I am not sure I “fully” understand this part of the exchange in part because of this word. I don’t have a good sense of which meaning is the “most basic.” (*ducking behind a flame shield* I dislike this phrase as much as anyone, but I am hoping it conveys what I intend it to convey.) I have left the phrase as generic as possible for this reason. I still have a nagging feeling that I am missing something due to the initial admonition to tell the truth. Nevertheless, I am reasonably sure my initial hint was inaccurate.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 13 wrote:εἰ δὲ μή, οὐ πολλοῖς γε, ἔφη. ἔγημας δὲ αὐτὴν παῖδα νέαν μάλιστα καὶ ὡς ἐδύνατο ἐλάχιστα ἑωρακυῖαν καὶ ἀκηκουῖαν; μάλιστα. οὐκοῦν πολὺ θαυμαστότερον εἴ τι ὧν δεῖ λέγειν ἢ πράττειν ἐπίσταιτο ἢ εἰ ἐξαμαρτάνοι.
“Well, if there are others I speak with less there aren’t many,” Kritoboulus answered.

“Didn’t you marry your wife while she a very young child and as a result *she has very few of her own life experiences that she can draw upon to make good decisions*?”

“Absolutely.”

“Then wouldn’t it be much more surprising if she were actually capable of saying or doing the appropriate thing in a given situation than if she were to make mistakes?”

Initial Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =10#p18617

Grammatical Hints:
εἰ δὲ μή: This initial hint was garbage. Sorry ‘bout that.
εἰ δὲ μή, οὐ πολλοῖς γε: This construction is a continuation of the thought presented by the previous speaker. This should make sense given that the last statement was a question and this construction shows some agreement with it (γε). You may need to supply the verb from that construction to make this one make sense.
αὐτὴν: What specific person does this pronoun refer to?
παῖδα νέαν μάλιστα: These are describing the past characteristics of the pronoun. The time indicated by the verb should affect your understanding of these descriptions.
ἐδύνατο ἐλάχιστα ἑωρακυῖαν καὶ ἀκηκουῖαν;: I rendered this phrase idiomatically into English. The idea seems to be that his wife was able to see and hear very little about the “real world” because she married young. My idiomatic rendering is set off by asterisks (*).
μάλιστα: An affirmation. “Certainly” or “Absolutely”
οὐκοῦν: I *believe* this word can be understood to signal either an interrogative sentence or a statement depending on the context. I have chosen the former route. Even if I am incorrect, it will affect the understanding of the text here very little.
πολὺ θαυμαστότερον εἴ...ἢ εἰ: This is a comparison that spans the entire sentence.
τι ὧν: I rendered this loosely as “in a given situation.”
ἐπίσταιτο: This verb when followed with infinitives will mean “to know how to do” or “be capable of.” I felt the last option was the best for this occasion.
ἐξαμαρτάνοι: Remember, this is the conclusion of the comparison.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Wes Wood
Posts: 692
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood »

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 14 wrote:οἷς δὲ σὺ λέγεις ἀγαθὰς εἶναι γυναῖκας, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἦ αὐτοὶ ταύτας ἐπαίδευσαν; οὐδὲν οἷον τὸ ἐπισκοπεῖσθαι. συστήσω δέ σοι ἐγὼ καὶ Ἀσπασίαν, ἣ ἐπιστημονέστερον ἐμοῦ σοι ταῦτα πάντα ἐπιδείξει.
“But did the husbands who you say have good wives train them, Socrates?”

“There is no substitute for looking into a matter for yourself, but I will also introduce you to Aspasia, who is more knowledgeable about these matters than I am. She will explain all of these things to you.”

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =10#p18618

Grammatical Hints:
οἷς...εἶναι...ἀγαθὰς...γυναῖκας: The infinitive form εἶναι may take a dative with the meaning and carry the meaning “have.” This dative may be translated in English as the subject of that infinitive. The object of the construction will be the accusative here.
σὺ λέγεις: This is an aside. “So you say.”
: I believe this word is signaling a question.
αὐτοὶ: This word refers back to οἷς.
τὸ ἐπισκοπεῖσθαι: Remember that an article used with an infinitive makes it a noun. I translated it somewhat loosely with the gerund phrase “looking into a matter for yourself.” In order for the phrase to make sense, you may have to supply a form of εἶναι.
συστήσω: συστήσω τινα τῷ
ἣ ἐπιστημονέστερον ἐμοῦ: “She is more knowledgeable than I am.”
ἐπιδείξει: ἐπιδείξει τινα τῷ
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Post Reply

Return to “Other Greek Texts”