Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

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Wes Wood
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Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » January 26th, 2015, 11:52 pm

I want to start this thread with the intent of keeping the discussions of my translations of Xenophon chapter 3 separate from the previous thread of hints. As I tinker, revise, and "finalize" my translations, I will provide additional grammatical hints to the previous thread. Hopefully, this will improve the user experience of the previous thread. At the very least, it should spare others from having to wade through my mistakes to find the bits that are more useful. If others feel that I have missed something that is important, please feel free to speak up, or should I say write down? :| For better or worse, I am not as shy as I once was. :)
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » January 27th, 2015, 10:31 pm

Xenophon, Oeconomicus, Chapter 3, Section 1 wrote:ἀκούσας ταῦτα ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπε: νῦν τοι, ἔφη, ἐγώ σε οὐκέτι ἀφήσω, ὦ Σώκρατες, πρὶν ἄν μοι ἃ ὑπέσχησαι ἐναντίον τῶν φίλων τουτωνὶ ἀποδείξῃς. τί οὖν, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω πρῶτον μὲν οἰκίας τοὺς μὲν ἀπὸ πολλοῦ ἀργυρίου ἀχρήστους οἰκοδομοῦντας, τοὺς δὲ ἀπὸ πολὺ ἐλάττονος πάντα ἐχούσας ὅσα δεῖ, ἦ δόξω ἕν τί σοι τοῦτο τῶν οἰκονομικῶν ἔργων ἐπιδεικνύναι;
After hearing these things Kritoboulus replied, “Socrates, I’m telling you that I will not allow you to leave until you make known to me what you promised to show me in the presence of these very men.

Let’s be honest, Kritoboulus, if I begin by showing you two types of houses, some that men have spent [is this an appropriate tense change?] large amounts of money to build that are impractical [<-useless] and others that men have spent much less money on that have all the necessities, can I believe that I am showing you what one of the tasks of stewardship is?

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18605

Grammatical Hints:

πρῶτον: My initial reaction was to take this as, “I will show you first this type of house then the other type” but I would expect to see some other indicator of sequence after the second element of the μὲν... δὲ structure. I settled on the idea of “I will start/begin by...”
τοὺς...οἰκοδομοῦντας: Notice that this does not agree in gender with οἰκίας.
ἀπὸ πολλοῦ ἀργυρίου and ἀπὸ πολὺ ἐλάττονος: My grammatical terminology is sorely lacking, but I would think of these as genitives of means?
ἀχρήστους: I take this as a feminine plural accusative adjective referring back to οἰκίας.
: I am taking this as an interrogative particle. It is constantly a difficult "word" for me.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » January 28th, 2015, 1:27 am

Xenophon, Oeconomicus, Chapter 3, Section 2 wrote:καὶ πάνυ γ᾽, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος. τί δ᾽ ἂν τὸ τούτου ἀκόλουθον μετὰ τοῦτό σοι ἐπιδεικνύω, τοὺς μὲν πάνυ πολλὰ καὶ παντοῖα κεκτημένους ἔπιπλα, καὶ τούτοις, ὅταν δέωνται, μὴ ἔχοντας χρῆσθαι μηδὲ εἰδότας εἰ σῶά ἐστιν αὐτοῖς, καὶ διὰ ταῦτα πολλὰ μὲν αὐτοὺς ἀνιωμένους, πολλὰ δὲ ἀνιῶντας τοὺς οἰκέτας: τοὺς δὲ οὐδὲν πλέον ἀλλὰ καὶ μείονα τούτων κεκτημένους ἔχοντας εὐθὺς ἕτοιμα [ὅταν] ὧν ἂν δέωνται χρῆσθαι.
Kritoboulus replied, “Most certainly.”

“And what if after I have shown you the difference between lavish uselessness and practical utility I go on to explain this to you? Some possess great amounts and various kinds of possessions, but whenever the occasion arises that they need something, they do not have those resources available to meet that need nor do they know if it is safe for them to use what they have. Because of their numerous possessions they are distressing themselves and are greatly distressing their household servants. On the other hand, there are others who have their possessions prepared to use immediately should a need arise, even though they possess even less than the others, not more."

Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18606
Grammatical Hints:
τὸ τούτου ἀκόλουθον μετὰ τοῦτό: This refers to moving past the discussion about the types of houses from the first section and on to the next topic about whether possessions are useful without preparedness.
τοὺς μὲν πάνυ πολλὰ καὶ παντοῖα κεκτημένους... τοὺς δὲ οὐδὲν πλέον ἀλλὰ καὶ μείονα τούτων κεκτημένους: this structure forms the framework for most of the section.
καὶ τούτοις: I believe this is serving to intensify (is this a decent way to put this?) ἔπιπλα
μηδὲ εἰδότας εἰ σῶά ἐστιν αὐτοῖς: I have taken this as though “χρῆσθαι” is implied. I am not confident that I understand this correctly.
ἀνιωμένους: I have translated this to try to emphasize the middle voice.
πολλὰ: I believe this is acting as an adverb
τοὺς δὲ οὐδὲν πλέον ἀλλὰ καὶ μείονα τούτων κεκτημένους: more literally “but others possessing not more but even less” than the first group that was discussed.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 28th, 2015, 6:06 am

Separation of glosses and grammatical information is an improvement, I think. Retaining them both in situ with the text is good too.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 29th, 2015, 5:23 am

In putting up grammatical hints, there is no clearly defined pattern to follow, and you are moving in the right direction. Spend more time on this, think about it again and again.

By way of direction, some grammatical / syntactical elements one or a few particular things, others create the overall structure for a passage or sentence. Basically, you are looking to recognise / draw attention to overall patterns and then identify variance within the patterns. Pattern recognition will come naturally as you both try to recognise them and continue your exposure to the same or similar patterns.

Keep at it.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » January 30th, 2015, 10:52 pm

Xenophon, Oeconomicus, Chapter 3, Section 3 wrote:ἄλλο τι οὖν τούτων ἐστίν, ὦ Σώκρατες, αἴτιον ἢ ὅτι τοῖς μὲν ὅπου ἔτυχεν ἕκαστον καταβέβληται, τοῖς δὲ ἐν χώρᾳ ἕκαστα τεταγμένα κεῖται; ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης: καὶ οὐδ᾽ ἐν χώρᾳ γ᾽ ἐν ᾗ ἔτυχεν, ἀλλ᾽ ἔνθα προσήκει, ἕκαστα διατέτακται. λέγειν τί μοι δοκεῖς, ἔφη, καὶ τοῦτο, ὁ Κριτόβουλος, τῶν οἰκονομικῶν.
“What other reason is there for these things, Socrates, but that those who aren’t able to use their possessions have laid them down wherever it happened to be convenient for them [and then can’t find them when the need arises?] but those who have their possessions ready to use have placed each of them in a designated place [so that they might easily access them should the need arise?]?”

“Yes, you are absolutely correct,” Socrates said, “the reason for the difference is that for those who are prepared everything has been arranged in a specific place and not in the place that was convenient at the time.

“What you seem to me to be saying,” Kritoboulus said, “is that this is also one of the works of stewardship.

Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18607

Grammatical Hints:
τοῖς μὲν: This is a dative of respect and refers to those previously mentioned who do not have their possessions ready to use.
ἕκαστον: This is the subject of the verb of the verb “καταβέβληται”. Objects don’t place themselves so this is a passive.
ὅπου ἔτυχεν: I see here a contrast between “where it happens to be” and “τεταγμένα” used later “where it has been assigned”. Objects don’t roam around (typically) so what I envision by this phrase is that someone has misplaced an object or has been careless about where it has been placed. I am obviously straying into interpretation here.
τοῖς δὲ: This is a dative of respect and refers to those previously mentioned who have their possessions ready to use.
ἕκαστα...κεῖται: Plural neuter subject with a singular verb
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽: A strong affirmative. I admit that I am unsure that my translation is the best way to bring it out and am even less certain that I have made clear the connection between what had been said and what Socrates is agreeing with.
ἕκαστα διατέτακται: Plural neuter subject with a singular verb. I think this is the main reason for the strong affirmative (the main reason for the latter groups success?).
λέγειν τί μοι δοκεῖς: “δοκεῖς” this verb may take a dative of person and a present infinitive and this is what we have here. This corresponds neatly to a familiar English phrase when rearranged to follow the constituent order above. “τί δοκεῖς μοι λέγειν” “what you seem to me to say”. One thing that may be helpful to remember is that forms of δοκεῖν often take an infinitive.
καὶ τοῦτο...τῶν οἰκονομικῶν: perhaps and this (arranging things thoughtfully)...[is] one of the things practiced in household management” I personally prefer something like “one of the tasks of a steward.”
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 2nd, 2015, 6:40 pm

Xen. Oec., 3.1 - SGH's comments on WW's initial notes, grammatical notes and rendering into English.
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Oeconomicus, Chapter 3, Section 1 wrote:ἀκούσας ταῦτα ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπε: νῦν τοι, ἔφη, ἐγώ σε οὐκέτι ἀφήσω, ὦ Σώκρατες, πρὶν ἄν μοι ἃ ὑπέσχησαι ἐναντίον τῶν φίλων τουτωνὶ ἀποδείξῃς. τί οὖν, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω πρῶτον μὲν οἰκίας τοὺς μὲν ἀπὸ πολλοῦ ἀργυρίου ἀχρήστους οἰκοδομοῦντας, τοὺς δὲ ἀπὸ πολὺ ἐλάττονος πάντα ἐχούσας ὅσα δεῖ, ἦ δόξω ἕν τί σοι τοῦτο τῶν οἰκονομικῶν ἔργων ἐπιδεικνύναι;
What happened to the underlined phrases?
After hearing these things Kritoboulus replied, “Socrates, I’m telling you (= now let me tell you??) that I will not allow you to leave until you make known to me what you promised to show me in the presence of these very men.

Let’s be honest, Kritoboulus, if I begin by showing you two types of houses, some that men have spent [is this an appropriate tense change?] large amounts of money to build that are impractical [<-useless] and others that men have spent much less money on that have all the necessities, can I believe that I am (See the note right at the bottom of this post - "Will / Would (future / subjunctive) I seem to be (something like the sense of, "would I be coming across as", "Would your impression of me be that I was ...-ing") indicating (present infinitive) to you) showing you what one of the tasks of stewardship is?

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18605

Grammatical Hints:

πρῶτον: My initial reaction was to take this as, “I will show you first this type of house then the other type” but I would expect to see some other indicator of sequence after the second element of the μὲν... δὲ structure. I settled on the idea of “I will start/begin by...” (This is the beginning of a division into two columns - Column A this τοὺς μὲν ... here and the ones that follow are the "Losers" and their characteristics, while the τοὺς δὲ of Column B are the "Keepers" and their attributes. In each of the following sections the τοὺς μὲν ... τοὺς δὲ ... structure is another line in the 2-coumned list.) (Are you aware that there are two μὲν structures here, the πρῶτον μὲν ... and the τοὺς μὲν ... ?)
τοὺς...οἰκοδομοῦντας: Notice that this does not agree in gender with οἰκίας. (To reverse that thinking, we could say, "The verb οἰκοδομεῖν takes an accusative of the thing built, and in the literal sense, the accusative will be of a type of structure (building) or part thereof.)
ἀπὸ πολλοῦ ἀργυρίου and ἀπὸ πολὺ ἐλάττονος: My grammatical terminology is sorely lacking, but I would think of these as genitives of means? (I am not competent to answer this question of terminology, but I think they are prepositional phrases rather than just genitives. On the other hand, you may be correct in what you say. The test is quite easy, but requires a broader exposure to Greek than we can get from just this one instance of it ... Look up the verb in the dictionary - i.e. use the dictionary as a patterns-of-usage resource. Lets take the example from the Chapter 2 thread:
Stephen Hughes - [url=http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2846&p=18732#p18732]Re: Xenophon, The Frugal Estate Manager, Chapter 2[/url] wrote:
LSJ (Leaned down of references and explanations added) wrote:μανθάνω
  • I. learn, esp. by study (but also, by practice; by experience) [The meaning]
    μ. τί τινος learn sth from sb , [The basic structure - become familiar with this]
    τι ἔκ τινος / παρά τινος / παρά τινος ὅτι / πρός τινος [Alternative / Similar structures - be able to recognise these]

    c. inf., learn to . . , or how to . . , [A basic structure - become familiar with this]
  • II. c. inf. acquire a habit of, and in past tenses, to be accustomed to . . , , [Special uses - be able to recognise these]
  • III. 1. τι perceive, remark, notice,
    • 2. freq. c. part.,
    • 3. with ὅτι, ; with ὡς, [Be able to expect this sentence structure]
  • IV. understand c. dat. pers., εἴ μοι μανθάνεις if you take me, freq. in Dialogue, μανθάνεις; d'ye see? Answ., πάνυ μανθάνω perfectly! [Special idioms - learn them as such]
  • V. τί μαθών . . [Special idiom - learn it as such]
Look pay attention to the underlined section. Note that the regular usage is with just the genitive, and the incidental usage is with the genitive and prepositions. In incidental cases such as those, the verb is constructed with the genitive, and the precise / nuanced / emphasised etc. meaning of the genitive's grammatical meaning is explicated / clearly stated / chosen for you by the addition of a preposition. That happens more frequently in earlier times than in later.

For your verb οἰκοδομεῖν, have a look at the entry in LSJ. Read it with leaning-down eyes (filter the information that is superfluous for the present task). Do you see either the phrase "c. gen." or the prepositional phrase "ἀπό τινος" there? Look for yourself, but I don't. Therefore in the opinion of that lineage of lexicographers the verb οἰκοδομεῖν. Now you need to make a value judgement - believe them, believe them at face value (with a lingering suspicion), or look into it further before moving on. That's a decision that you will have to take into consideration so many personal time-factors that I can't answer it for you. Personally, in cases like this, I get a concordance list of the New Testament verses up on the screen, think of the shapes of the genitives -οῦ, -ος, ῶν and the shape of the omicron with a grave of ἀπὸ then scan the list. That is a flawed (-ὸς), but quick method to set my mind at ease - it costs me about 45 seconds. How many examples I look at gives me an idea of how I strongly I should believe my opinions formed by the scan.

Okay, having ascertained that the ἀπὸ + an amount of money does not regularly go with οἰκοδομεῖν, we can take the step to ask what it does go with. To get a clue where to start, logically guess what verb would the preposition be equivalent. My guesses is "paying out", "spending", "using (up)". Which of those guesses is closest to the idea of the Greek? I think "using (up)" is - "taking from one's resources of". Now that we have a direction, follow that line a little more ... "laying out", "wasting", "depleting", and so on. Now go to Woodhouse and look up the possible leads. For me, my first choice is "use" and my second "spend", from those, the most likely candidates are ἀπαναλίσκειν and δαπανᾶν. Taking those word back to the New Testament and LSJ ... ἀπαναλίσκειν isn't used, but ἀναλίσκειν "consume" and καταναλίσκειν "consume completely" is, and δαπανᾶν "spend" only seems concerned with the front side of the spending - not implying (prompting us to think about) the behind-the-scenes dwindling of resources. Neither of them is constructed with an ἀπὸ + an amount of money. So there is no need to note anything for others.

ἀχρήστους: I take this as a feminine plural accusative adjective referring back to οἰκίας. (As with many alpha-privative adjectives, this follows a two termination pattern.)
: I am taking this as an interrogative particle. It is constantly a difficult "word" for me. (Wes, you're moving in the write direction by putting that in inverted commas, but perhaps you're still looking in the wrong place for understanding. It's understood here in your gut not up there in your mind ... Go ahead, open your mouth and say it. It's primal not rational. "Eh! What's your name?", we also use it at the end of sentences, "What's your name, eh?")
Wes Wood from the original hints wrote: ὑπέσχησαι: to promise (Pay more attention to the practicality of this hint. Someone seeing it phrased this way is going to think that it is an aorist infinitive, actually it is a second person singular perfect, reduplicated in epsilon. Also the first instinct will be to think it comes from ὑπέχω "to undergo", but actually it is from ὑπισχνεῖσθαι "to undertake to")
...
ἦ δόξω...τουτο...επιδεικνυναι...σοι: I am still not certain I understand this. I have translated this as a future that takes an accusative and then an infinitive. (Are you bearing in mind the phrase ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω πρῶτον μὲν ... when you are understanding this?) Here the infinitive also takes a dative. (It is the verb ἐπιδεικνύναι inself that takes the dative, not the fact that it is infinitive. The grammatical ending relates it to other parts of the sentence, while the επιδεικνυ- part prompts you to remember what it is expecting to also be in the sentence to relate to it.)
ἐπιδεικνύναι: to show τι τινί (something to somebody)
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » February 3rd, 2015, 9:05 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:What happened to the underlined phrases?
νῦν τοι: After I read this phrase as I had originally glossed it, I decided that some(Admittedly, I am referring primarily to those I speak to every day.) might interpret the phrase to be more lighthearted/joking than serious. I meant to leave the “now” in the phrase and that would have helped some, but I wasn’t thrilled with any of the translations that I came up with that weren’t more related to a paraphrase.

ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης: I thought the paragraph break with the direct address would be adequate without the need to include this.
Stephen Hughes wrote: ἦ δόξω...τουτο...επιδεικνυναι...σοι: I am still not certain I understand this. I have translated this as a future that takes an accusative and then an infinitive. (Are you bearing in mind the phrase ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω πρῶτον μὲν ... when you are understanding this?) Here the infinitive also takes a dative. (It is the verb ἐπιδεικνύναι inself that takes the dative, not the fact that it is infinitive. The grammatical ending relates it to other parts of the sentence, while the επιδεικνυ- part prompts you to remember what it is expecting to also be in the sentence to relate to it.)
ἐπιδεικνύναι: to show τι τινί (something to somebody)
This is still as clear to me as my reflection in a cardboard mirror. I will take this up later.
πρῶτον: My initial reaction was to take this as, “I will show you first this type of house then the other type” but I would expect to see some other indicator of sequence after the second element of the μὲν... δὲ structure. I settled on the idea of “I will start/begin by...”(This is the beginning of a division into two columns - Column A this τοὺς μὲν ... here and the ones that follow are the "Losers" and their characteristics, while the τοὺς δὲ of Column B are the "Keepers" and their attributes. In each of the following sections the τοὺς μὲν ... τοὺς δὲ ... structure is another line in the 2-coumned list.) (Are you aware that there are two μὲν structures here, the πρῶτον μὲν ... and the τοὺς μὲν ... ?)
I was aware of both of them, but I didn’t think to point out the relationship between them as I should have. I lost focus trying to make clear the relationship I think exists between “πρῶτον μὲν” here in section 1 and the “τὸ τούτου ἀκόλουθον μετὰ τοῦτό” in section 2. I agree with you that there is one category being examined with a good example and a bad example.
τοὺς...οἰκοδομοῦντας: Notice that this does not agree in gender with οἰκίας. (To reverse that thinking, we could say, "The verb οἰκοδομεῖν takes an accusative of the thing built, and in the literal sense, the accusative will be of a type of structure (building) or part thereof.)
Okay. Now you’re just showing off :lol:
Stephen Hughes wrote: Neither of them is constructed with an ἀπὸ + an amount of money. So there is no need to note anything for others.
I was with you until this point. I believe you are referring to “ἀναλίσκειν” and “καταναλίσκειν”, but I am unsure why you wouldn’t look at the others if neither of these is used with ἀπὸ + an amount of money. Sorry for being slow, but I have fallen behind.
Stephen Hughes wrote: It's primal not rational.
I can’t do primal. It sounds like my screen laugh when I say it...heh heh heh.
ὑπέσχησαι: to promise (Pay more attention to the practicality of this hint.
:oops: Oops.

My apologies once again for my sloth.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 4th, 2015, 2:36 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:What happened to the underlined phrases?
νῦν τοι: After I read this phrase as I had originally glossed it, I decided that some(Admittedly, I am referring primarily to those I speak to every day.) might interpret the phrase to be more lighthearted/joking than serious. I meant to leave the “now” in the phrase and that would have helped some, but I wasn’t thrilled with any of the translations that I came up with that weren’t more related to a paraphrase.
Does your province have a standard variety of English that you can work to? You could second-check your daily usage against the standard language.
Wes Wood wrote:ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης: I thought the paragraph break with the direct address would be adequate without the need to include this.
It is not clear that a new paragraph = a new speaker. A less drastic modification would be, He replied, "Such and so.". Pretty soon though, a third speaker is going to join in the conversation.

In verse the person changes sometimes in the middle of a metrical unit. That reminds me, How are you reading this aloud? With some intonation this Greek actually sounds quite beautiful. I've been messing about with chapter one, and a level tone for unaccented syllables, rising / falling and rise-falling for the marked seems to be the most aesthetically pleasing. How is the best way to send you a snippet for your opinion?
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote: ἦ δόξω...τουτο...επιδεικνυναι...σοι: I am still not certain I understand this. I have translated this as a future that takes an accusative and then an infinitive. (Are you bearing in mind the phrase ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω πρῶτον μὲν ... when you are understanding this?) Here the infinitive also takes a dative. (It is the verb ἐπιδεικνύναι i[t]self that takes the dative, not the fact that it is infinitive. The grammatical ending relates it to other parts of the sentence, while the επιδεικνυ- part prompts you to remember what it is expecting to also be in the sentence to relate to it.)
ἐπιδεικνύναι: to show τι τινί (something to somebody)
This is still as clear to me as my reflection in a cardboard mirror. I will take this up later.
I take the overall structure here as; "I'm not letting you leave till you tell me..." ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω πρῶτον μὲν ... ... "If I pointed out ..." ἦ δόξω...τουτο...επιδεικνυναι...σοι "would it seem that I was telling you?" (=would you let me go?)
Wes Wood wrote:
πρῶτον: My initial reaction was to take this as, “I will show you first this type of house then the other type” but I would expect to see some other indicator of sequence after the second element of the μὲν... δὲ structure. I settled on the idea of “I will start/begin by...”(This is the beginning of a division into two columns - Column A this τοὺς μὲν ... here and the ones that follow are the "Losers" and their characteristics, while the τοὺς δὲ of Column B are the "Keepers" and their attributes. In each of the following sections the τοὺς μὲν ... τοὺς δὲ ... structure is another line in the 2-coumned list.) (Are you aware that there are two μὲν structures here, the πρῶτον μὲν ... and the τοὺς μὲν ... ?)
I was aware of both of them, but I didn’t think to point out the relationship between them as I should have. I lost focus trying to make clear the relationship I think exists between “πρῶτον μὲν” here in section 1 and the “τὸ τούτου ἀκόλουθον μετὰ τοῦτό” in section 2. I agree with you that there is one category being examined with a good example and a bad example.
πρῶτον μὲν doesn't seem to have a following xxx δὲ ... in sight, so look for another way of handling the μὲν.
Wes Wood wrote:
τοὺς...οἰκοδομοῦντας: Notice that this does not agree in gender with οἰκίας. (To reverse that thinking, we could say, "The verb οἰκοδομεῖν takes an accusative of the thing built, and in the literal sense, the accusative will be of a type of structure (building) or part thereof.)
Okay. Now you’re just showing off :lol:
I think showing off is an attempt to short-cut people's rational filtering of what they see / hear, to make an impression that is not true. It seems that in this forum at least, the majority of people will have developed at least a rudimentary and pre-disposed filters to deal with what I say before I say it, as indeed with out regular posters. Even trying to show off would seem really old, really quickly. I meant that, at a feeding a baby with a spoon level, that would satisfy.
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote: Neither of them is constructed with an ἀπὸ + an amount of money. So there is no need to note anything for others.
I was with you until this point. I believe you are referring to “ἀναλίσκειν” and “καταναλίσκειν”, but I am unsure why you wouldn’t look at the others if neither of these is used with ἀπὸ + an amount of money. Sorry for being slow, but I have fallen behind.
I mean, between you and me in discussion, it is something to explore. But in providing help for others, a great majority of possible solutions are considered then disregarded.
Wes Wood wrote:My apologies once again for my sloth.
Everybody has his regular life. This is conversation doesn't have time constraints, the real world does.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by cwconrad » February 4th, 2015, 11:59 am

I'm reluctant to intervene here, but having been asked my opinion about this construction I'll go ahead and make a stab at it:
ἀκούσας ταῦτα ὁ Κριτόβουλος εἶπε: νῦν τοι, ἔφη, ἐγώ σε οὐκέτι ἀφήσω, ὦ Σώκρατες, πρὶν ἄν μοι ἃ ὑπέσχησαι ἐναντίον τῶν φίλων τουτωνὶ ἀποδείξῃς. τί οὖν, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, ὦ Κριτόβουλε, ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω πρῶτον μὲν οἰκίας τοὺς μὲν ἀπὸ πολλοῦ ἀργυρίου ἀχρήστους οἰκοδομοῦντας, τοὺς δὲ ἀπὸ πολὺ ἐλάττονος πάντα ἐχούσας ὅσα δεῖ, ἦ δόξω ἕν τί σοι τοῦτο τῶν οἰκονομικῶν ἔργων ἐπιδεικνύναι;
Critobulus insists that Socrates go ahead and present the promised demonstration. In response, Socrates asks if Critobulus will be satisfied with a demonstration that there are properties of great financial worth that are useless because they are poorly managed, while at the same time there are properties that are worth considerably less that provide all that anyone might need. He poses this question in a conditional construction: ἄν σοι ἀποδεικνύω — “IF I show you …, ἦ δόξω ἕν τί σοι τοῦτο τῶν οἰκονομικῶν ἔργων ἐπιδεικνύναι — “THEN will/shall I seem to be showing you (i.e. will you think that I am showing you) any single one of the tasks of estate management (ἕν τί … τοῦτο τῶν οἰκονομικῶν ἔργων)?”
That is, “will that satisfy you and fulfill my promise?”
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

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