Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
Forum rules
This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 4th, 2015, 4:06 pm

cwconrad wrote:I'm reluctant to intervene here,
Neither you nor anyone else should feel that contributions from all and sundry are not welcome here. From my point of view at least, I'm trying my best with this - and that is not as good as I would hope it was, I quite frankly don't think I'm the best man for the job - but I am the fool who stepped up to the plate, and I do find it taxing and time-consuming.

If it seems I am making a mistake, it would be better to have it dealt with quickly, cleanly and now, rather than waiting for a long time after the discussion has moved on. I am not infallible, inerrant or incognito. Anyone who has an insight or correction is, from my perspective, welcome to share it - if Wes is wrong help him learn, if I am wrong correct me.

This is a forum for a free exchange of ideas.
0 x


Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Wes Wood
Posts: 688
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » February 5th, 2015, 9:53 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Does your province have a standard variety of English that you can work to? You could second-check your daily usage against the standard language.
Not that I am aware of, but I don't believe that the standard dialect (if that be the correct word for it) where I am from would be accepted by the majority of English speakers who have working ears.
Stephen Hughes wrote:It is not clear that a new paragraph = a new speaker. A less drastic modification would be, He replied, "Such and so.". Pretty soon though, a third speaker is going to join in the conversation.
I agree but I thought the additional address made it unnecessary, but if you find fault with it I probably should have put it in there. At least it was something I was aware that I had done.
Stephen Hughes wrote:In verse the person changes sometimes in the middle of a metrical unit. That reminds me, How are you reading this aloud? With some intonation this Greek actually sounds quite beautiful. I've been messing about with chapter one, and a level tone for unaccented syllables, rising / falling and rise-falling for the marked seems to be the most aesthetically pleasing. How is the best way to send you a snippet for your opinion?
My current spoken Greek is somewhere between Erasmian and the JACT Reading Greek series pronunciation and is working its way toward the latter. I haven't done anything with intonation. About the best way to send me an audio file, I have no idea. My use and grasp of computer technologies is far behind that of an average kindergartener. Let me interrogate my brother, and I will get back to you.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I mean, between you and me in discussion, it is something to explore. But in providing help for others, a great majority of possible solutions are considered then disregarded.
Oh, okay. That makes sense.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 6th, 2015, 5:13 am

Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:It is not clear that a new paragraph = a new speaker. A less drastic modification would be, He replied, "Such and so.". Pretty soon though, a third speaker is going to join in the conversation.
I agree but I thought the additional address made it unnecessary, but if you find fault with it I probably should have put it in there. At least it was something I was aware that I had done.
That is good. It is a sign that you are beginning to reign the text in, not just get dragged along behind it.
Wes Wood wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:Does your province have a standard variety of English that you can work to? You could second-check your daily usage against the standard language.
Not that I am aware of, but I don't believe that the standard dialect (if that be the correct word for it) where I am from would be accepted by the majority of English speakers who have working ears.
Well.... Be that as it may, the purpose of my suggestion is that think both inside yourself about how you would say what Xenophon has written - as if you were Xenophon writing in English - as you are doing from time to time in addition to word for word translation, AND that you could consider whether those who would read what you'd written / heard what you'd said would a) recognise it to be the same work and b) full understand it as you believe that you do. Like using an external standard in the process to play your own devil's advocate. It was not really a question about your community's dialect per se.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
Posts: 2109
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by cwconrad » February 6th, 2015, 7:34 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Well.... Be that as it may, the purpose of my suggestion is that think both inside yourself about how you would say what Xenophon has written - as if you were Xenophon writing in English - as you are doing from time to time in addition to word for word translation, AND that you could consider whether those who would read what you'd written / heard what you'd said would a) recognise it to be the same work and b) full understand it as you believe that you do. Like using an external standard in the process to play your own devil's advocate. It was not really a question about your community's dialect per se.
In my later years of teaching, particularly in classes dealing with literary texts in Greek or in Latin, I would ask students to prepare each week a very brief text selected from our current reading. I asked them to compose two versions, one of them demonstrating how they understood the original-language structure of the text, a second one phrased in the best English they could muster to convey the meaning and as much as possible of the art of the original. That is to say: one version was intended to illustrate how the syntactical structure of the original text works; the second version was to be a sort of crafted imitation, an endeavor to carry over as much of the artful expression of thought as possible, into the best English one can muster. I warned them that the effort would almost surely fall very short of the intended goal, but that the effort put into it might help one appreciate the craft of the original text all the more -- and that was the real intent of the exercise.

An illustration, for what it's worth, of a successful effort at "re-creation" in a second language, is Catullus 51 as a version of Sappho #2 (LP #31):
φαίνεταί μοι κῆνος ἴσος θέοισιν
ἔμμεν' ὤνηρ, ὄττις ἐνάντιός τοι
ἰσδάνει καὶ πλάσιον ἆδυ φωνεί-
σας ὐπακούει

καὶ γελαίσας ἰμέροεν, τό μ' ἦ μὰν
καρδίαν ἐν στήθεσιν ἐπτόαισεν,
ὠς γὰρ ἔς σ' ἴδω βρόχε' ὤς με φώνας
οὔδεν ἔτ' εἴκει,

ἀλλὰ κὰμ μὲν γλῶσσα +ἔαγε, λέπτον
δ' αὔτικα χρῶι πῦρ ὐπαδεδρόμακεν,
ὀππάτεσσι δ' οὐδ' ἒν ὄρημμ', ἐπιρρόμ-
βεισι δ' ἄκουαι,
And here's Catullus:
Ille mi par esse deo videtur,
ille, si fas est, superare divos
qui sedens adversus identidem te
spectat et audit

dulce ridentem, misero quod omnis
eripit sensus mihi: nam simul te,
Lesbia, adspexi, nihil est super mi
[...]

lingua sed torpet, tenuis sub artus
flamma demanat, sonitu suopte
tintinant aures, gemina teguntur
lumina nocte.
Catullus "imitates" rather than restates the form and content of Sappho, but he retains the exact rhythm at the same time as he makes Sappho's verse an expression of his own shattering erotic experience. This is what successful transformation of the text is. It takes a creative artist to do it successfully, but it is occasionally successful. I think that's what one should aim at: reformulation of the original in the best that one can muster in one's native language and dialect. The verse illustration I've offered may be misleading -- reformulating Xenophon is a (relatively) simpler task, but it still requires some creative thinking about how best to carry over that particular nuance of meaning into English that best expresses what you think the Greek text means.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Wes Wood
Posts: 688
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » February 6th, 2015, 8:28 pm

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 4 wrote:τί οὖν, ἄν σοι, ἔφη, καὶ οἰκέτας αὖ ἐπιδεικνύω ἔνθα μὲν πάντας ὡς εἰπεῖν δεδεμένους, καὶ τούτους θαμινὰ ἀποδιδράσκοντας, ἔνθα δὲ λελυμένους καὶ ἐθέλοντάς τε ἐργάζεσθαι καὶ παραμένειν, οὐ καὶ τοῦτό σοι δόξω ἀξιοθέατον τῆς οἰκονομίας ἔργον ἐπιδεικνύναι; ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος, καὶ σφόδρα γε.
He continued, “then what if in addition [to these things] I also show you household slaves both in places where all of the slaves (more or less) are kept in chains and escape even though they are closely guarded, and also in places where they are free from chains and are willing to work [for] and to remain [with] [their master]? If I show you this also, I will seem to be showing you a task of stewardship that is well worth seeing, won’t I?"

“Yes, absolutely,” said Kritoboulus. “[You] most certainly [will be] indeed.

Original HInts:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18608

Grammatical Hints:
ἔνθα μὲν... ἔνθα δὲ: I made a typo on my earlier hint; I meant to type “where” instead of “there”. Additionally, I had to really fight myself to not translate “οἰκέτας” as households. Instead, in my translation I expanded a bit on “ἔνθα” as “in the places where”. The focus in each of the ἔνθα phrases is on the different conditions in which the slaves are kept. The implication is that different households treat their slaves differently-some keep them under lock and key and some give them more freedom.
ὡς εἰπεῖν: I took this as a parenthetical expression used to “soften” or “weaken” an absolute. Which word do you think it affects?
θαμινὰ: I am not confident that I have gotten either this hint or the previous one right. I am understanding it as roughly equivalent to the word “close” in the phrase “keeping a close eye on them”. I expect that I will be corrected on this point.
ἐθέλοντάς τε ἐργάζεσθαι καὶ παραμένειν: This phrase refers to the slaves who have been given greater freedoms, but I am unsure whether it refers to working inside the home and remaining there, if it refers to working outside of the home and returning there (and thereby remain at home), or if it perhaps encompasses all of these ideas. I have translated this phrase to bring out what I believe is the major idea: the slaves who are given greater freedom still do their master’s bidding.
οὐ καὶ τοῦτό σοι δόξω ἀξιοθέατον τῆς οἰκονομίας ἔργον ἐπιδεικνύναι;: What answer was the speaker of this question expecting?
καὶ τοῦτό: The previous information was deemed to be an acceptable demonstration of his claim. The question in the sentence above is whether or not the new information being put forward will be acceptable as well.
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽: A strong affirmative. In archaic English: “Yes, by Jove.” (This makes me think of The Once and Future King.)
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
Posts: 688
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » February 6th, 2015, 8:33 pm

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 5 wrote:ἂν δὲ καὶ παραπλησίους γεωργίας γεωργοῦντας, τοὺς μὲν ἀπολωλέναι φάσκοντας ὑπὸ γεωργίας καὶ ἀποροῦντας, τοὺς δὲ ἀφθόνως καὶ καλῶς πάντα ἔχοντας ὅσων δέονται ἀπὸ τῆς γεωργίας; ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος. ἴσως γὰρ ἀναλίσκουσιν οὐκ εἰς ἃ δεῖ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ εἰς ἃ βλάβην φέρει αὐτῷ καὶ τῷ οἴκῳ.
“And if also men who are cultivating farms of the same size and quality, some claim to have been destroyed by farming and are in poverty but others have abundantly and well [in hand] all the things that they might need from their farm?”

“Yes, most certainly,” Kritoboulus said. “For those who are at a loss probably spend money not only for the things that are necessary but also for the things which bring harm to them and to their households.

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18609

Grammatical Hints:
ἂν δὲ καὶ: Here Socrates is asking if another illustration would be adequate to fulfill Kritoboulus’s request. What verb should you supply for this construction?
παραπλησίους: I had originally glossed this as “the same size”, but when I revisited my notes I noticed my folly. Size isn’t everything on a farm. You must also take into consideration the composition of the land. My translation reflects that understanding. (Warning unnecessary illustration ahead; skip if desired) [My parents own land with many different features. About thirty acres of that land is riddled with ravines more than forty feet deep in various places with a living spring that creates a small stream that runs over, cuts through, and, in some places, goes under the land itself. It would be impossible to try to farm that. On the other hand, they also own land that is flat enough to make some suspect that they are wasting it by not planting on it. What those people don’t realize is that some of that land was once part of an ancient seabed (oh, alright: it was a bay of the Gulf of Mexico) and has a mixture of both sand and clay hidden by just a few inches of workable top soil. You could grow things there if you truly wished to, but it most likely wouldn’t be worth your effort. Finally, they have fertile soil that they do farm. It provides a predictable source of income year after year and a haven for all manner of wildlife. If you were to have equal amounts of these three types of land, you would have radically different success rates. In some instances, regardless of the skill of the farmer. (For the record, these differences have always made me most curious, because I can’t divine what the forces would have been that would have created such differences within such relatively short geographical boundaries to account for the information I just shared, all of which I know to be scientific truth. For those who might be interested look google “Coon Creek” fossils and “Mississippi Embayment”.)]
τοὺς μὲν ἀπολωλέναι...τοὺς δὲ ἔχοντας ὅσων δέονται: notice the two different groups and the contrast being made between them.
ἀποροῦντας: This would have been better glossed in the earlier hints as “are in poverty”.
ἀφθόνως and καλῶς: These are adverbs.
ναὶ μὰ Δί᾽: A strong affirmative. In archaic English: “Yes, by Jove.” I would say “see the note from the previous section,” but I hate it when something says that.
ἴσως: I think this is much better understood as “perhaps”. In my first hint I understood the text as stating that they spent money as freely on unnecessary things as on the things that are necessary. I think this is closer to what was intended.
ἀναλίσκουσιν: I think the best way to think of this as you are trying to go through this ending sections is “they spend money”. It isn’t wasteful to use money for necessities. Money is spent for a purpose...
ἀναλίσκουσιν οὐκ μόνον...ἀλλὰ καὶ: There are two different categories here.
εἰς ἃ: If you are having trouble with this, read the last two hints again carefully.
βλάβην: Would you expect this to be the subject or object? Why?"
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
Posts: 688
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » February 6th, 2015, 8:37 pm

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 6 wrote: εἰσὶ μέν τινες ἴσως, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης, καὶ τοιοῦτοι. ἀλλ᾽ ἐγὼ οὐ τούτους λέγω, ἀλλ᾽ οἳ οὐδ᾽ εἰς τἀναγκαῖα ἔχουσι δαπανᾶν, γεωργεῖν φάσκοντες. καὶ τί ἂν εἴη τούτου αἴτιον, ὦ Σώκρατες; ἐγώ σε ἄξω καὶ ἐπὶ τούτους, ἔφη ὁ Σωκράτης: σὺ δὲ θεώμενος δήπου καταμαθήσῃ. νὴ Δί᾽, ἔφη, ἂν δύνωμαί γε.
Socrates said, “There are some, perhaps, who are like these, but I am not speaking about them. I am speaking about the ones who do not have anything to spend for necessities, who are claiming to be farmers.”

“And what is the reason of this, Socrates?”

“I will lead you to these things also,” Socrates said. “And after you see [them], you will certainly understand.”

“Certainly, if I am able indeed.”

Original Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18610

Grammatical Hints:
ἴσως: “Perhaps” This is yet another emendation to my previous hints.
τοιοῦτοι: “like these”
ἀλλ᾽ ἐγὼ οὐ τούτους λέγω, ἀλλ᾽ οἳ οὐδ᾽ εἰς τἀναγκαῖα ἔχουσι δαπανᾶν: There is a contrast that is being made from the first “ἀλλ᾽” to the second “ἀλλ᾽”. What verb needs to be supplied for the second phrase?
οὐδ᾽: What does this negate? Is this word in the middle of a phrase unit?
ἔχουσι: What object needs to be supplied for this participle? Remember that this verb often expects an infinitive. These two things together should help with the first question.
δαπανᾶν: Money is spent εἴς τι.
ἄξω: εἰς or πρὸς a τόπον
δήπου: I think that this may mean something like “of course” or “surely”. But if I am wrong I probably misunderstand the nuance of Kritoboulus’s reply. For that reason I am not going to comment on it.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
Posts: 688
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » February 6th, 2015, 8:40 pm

I haven't been as idle as it may have appeared. :D You just have to remember that if *you* don't feel qualified for the task *I* certainly don't. But I do feel relatively good about these now.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
Posts: 688
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Wes Wood » February 6th, 2015, 11:55 pm

Xenophon Chapter 3 Section 7 wrote: οὐκοῦν χρὴ θεώμενον σαυτοῦ ἀποπειρᾶσθαι εἰ γνώσῃ. νῦν δ᾽ ἐγὼ σὲ σύνοιδα ἐπὶ μὲν κωμῳδῶν θέαν καὶ πάνυ πρῲ ἀνιστάμενον καὶ πάνυ μακρὰν ὁδὸν βαδίζοντα καὶ ἐμὲ ἀναπείθοντα προθύμως συνθεᾶσθαι: ἐπὶ δὲ τοιοῦτον οὐδέν με πώποτε ἔργον παρεκάλεσας. οὐκοῦν γελοῖός σοι φαίνομαι εἶναι, ὦ Σώκρατες.
“Then it is certainly necessary for you to attempt to do it yourself when you see [it] if you are going to learn. But at this moment I am aware that you will get up very early for a viewing of a comedy and walk a very long way and eagerly persuade me to watch it with you. But you have never-not one time-invited me to a production like this.”

“I must appear to be ridiculous to you, Socrates.”

Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18611
Grammatical Hints:
οὐκοῦν: “Surely then” I left this out of my original hints, because I was unsure of the force of it. In my translation here I have split that thought up and translated it “then...certainly”.
χρὴ: It is necessary for this verb to take an infinitive here.
θεώμενον: I believe the temporal aspect of this participle is important.
ἀποπειρᾶσθαι: This infinitive is looking for a genitive.
εἰ γνώσῃ: I decided the best way to translate this was to use the overlooked and disliked English future “going to...”. Stephen, I am sure my province would approve this one. :oops:
ἐπὶ μὲν... ἐπὶ δὲ: There is a great deal of distance between these two elements, but be careful not to miss the relationship between the two phrases. I translated the preposition ἐπὶ as “for”.
ἔργον: I wouldn’t normally feel the need to gloss this, but for those who are more familiar with the New Testament it might help. In view of the comedy mentioned earlier I translated this a “production”. It seems to fit the idea quite well, in my opinion.
οὐκοῦν: Here the word means the same as it did above. In my translation, I conveyed the thought with “must”.
0 x
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Discussion of Xenophon Chapter 3 Translations

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 7th, 2015, 11:36 am

Xen. Oec., 3.2 - SGH's comments on WW's initial notes, grammatical notes and rendering into English.
Wes Wood wrote:
Xenophon, Oeconomicus, Chapter 3, Section 2 wrote:καὶ πάνυ γ᾽, ἔφη ὁ Κριτόβουλος. τί δ᾽ ἂν τὸ τούτου ἀκόλουθον μετὰ τοῦτό σοι ἐπιδεικνύω, τοὺς μὲν πάνυ πολλὰ καὶ παντοῖα κεκτημένους ἔπιπλα, καὶ τούτοις, ὅταν δέωνται, μὴ ἔχοντας χρῆσθαι μηδὲ εἰδότας εἰ σῶά ἐστιν αὐτοῖς, καὶ διὰ ταῦτα πολλὰ μὲν αὐτοὺς ἀνιωμένους, πολλὰ δὲ ἀνιῶντας τοὺς οἰκέτας: τοὺς δὲ οὐδὲν πλέον ἀλλὰ καὶ μείονα τούτων κεκτημένους ἔχοντας εὐθὺς ἕτοιμα [ὅταν] ὧν ἂν δέωνται χρῆσθαι.
Kritoboulus replied, “Most certainly.”

“And what if after I have shown you the difference between lavish uselessness and practical utility I go on to explain this to you? Some possess great amounts and various kinds of possessions (I think this is a more specific word - furniture (or slightly more generally household goods), or other things that you would take with you when you sell the house, in contrast to the lavish construction of the house itself that was mentioned just earlier), but whenever the occasion arises that they need something, they do not have those resources available to meet that need nor do they know if it is safe for them to use what they have. Because of their numerous possessions they are distressing themselves and are greatly distressing their household servants. On the other hand, there are others who have their possessions prepared to use immediately should a need arise, even though they possess even less than the others, not more."

There has been a degree of creative thinking in that underlined section, which is good. Now let's try to guide the creativity into something that will a little more resemble the original.

καὶ τούτοις, ὅταν δέωνται, μὴ ἔχοντας χρῆσθαι μηδὲ εἰδότας εἰ σῶά ἐστιν αὐτοῖς, let's first remove the parenthetical phrase ὅταν δέωνται, and then consider what τούτοις ... μὴ ἔχοντας χρῆσθαι, the ταῦτα (i.e. the ἔπιπλα) is dative with χρῆσθαι. We know that μὴ ἔχοντας is accusative here still because of the σοι ἀποδεικνύω in section 1. σῶά is definitely not an impersonal as you have rendered it, but I will need some time to think further about this. I'm going with the idea that something needs to be supplied to make the sense here, but I don't want to stop everything else while I think about this point.

Previous Hints:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 896#p18606
Grammatical Hints:
τὸ τούτου ἀκόλουθον μετὰ τοῦτό: This refers to moving past the discussion about the types of houses from the first section and on to the next topic about whether possessions are useful without preparedness.
τοὺς μὲν πάνυ πολλὰ καὶ παντοῖα κεκτημένους... τοὺς δὲ οὐδὲν πλέον ἀλλὰ καὶ μείονα τούτων κεκτημένους: this structure forms the framework for most of the section.
καὶ τούτοις: I believe this is serving to intensify (is this a decent way to put this?) ἔπιπλα
μηδὲ εἰδότας εἰ σῶά ἐστιν αὐτοῖς: I have taken this as though “χρῆσθαι” is implied. I am not confident that I understand this correctly.
ἀνιωμένους: I have translated this to try to emphasize the middle voice.
πολλὰ: I believe this is acting as an adverb
τοὺς δὲ οὐδὲν πλέον ἀλλὰ καὶ μείονα τούτων κεκτημένους: more literally “but others possessing not more but even less” than the first group that was discussed.
0 x
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Post Reply