Plato's Epistles Translation Check

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Wes Wood
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Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Plato's Epistles Translation Check

Post by Wes Wood » December 18th, 2015, 4:45 am

ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκείνῳ μὲν οὐ σφόδρα πιστεύω τούτοις χρώμενον ἂν τοῖς χρήμασιν δίκαιον γίγνεσθαι περὶ ἐμέ—οὐ γὰρ ὀλίγα ἔσται—σοὶ δὲ καὶ τοῖς σοῖς μᾶλλον πεπίστευκα.

"For I don't have much faith in that man, if he were loaned this money, to do right by me--for the amount of money won't be small--but I have more faith in you and the ones who are with you.

I don't trust myself with the underlined portion. Does this translation get at the sense of it?
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

cwconrad
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Re: Plato's Epistles Translation Check

Post by cwconrad » December 18th, 2015, 3:06 pm

Wes Wood wrote:ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκείνῳ μὲν οὐ σφόδρα πιστεύω τούτοις χρώμενον ἂν τοῖς χρήμασιν δίκαιον γίγνεσθαι περὶ ἐμέ—οὐ γὰρ ὀλίγα ἔσται—σοὶ δὲ καὶ τοῖς σοῖς μᾶλλον πεπίστευκα.

"For I don't have much faith in that man, if he were loaned this money, to do right by me--for the amount of money won't be small--but I have more faith in you and the ones who are with you.

I don't trust myself with the underlined portion. Does this translation get at the sense of it?
I'd like to see more context here. I don't see that this necessarily involves a loan, but χρώμενον ἂν τοῖς χρήμασιν does involve the potential control of funds or resources by the person in question. This is a neat example of the usage of participle with ἄν that SH recently called attention to.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Wes Wood
Posts: 691
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Plato's Epistles Translation Check

Post by Wes Wood » December 18th, 2015, 5:35 pm

It took me a bit to track down the right passage. That particular snippet was all that I had in front of me. I had been doing a search looking at forms of πιστεύω and that popped up. Here is some context (which I think definitively proves I was wrong) and, for kicks and giggles, my stab at translating the part I didn't do yesterday.

τῇ μετὰ ταῦτα ἐλθὼν ἡμέρᾳ λέγει πρός με πιθανὸν λόγον: ‘ἐμοὶ καὶ σοὶ δίων,’ ἔφη, ‘καὶ τὰ Δίωνος ἐκποδὼν ἀπαλλαχθήτω τοῦ περὶ αὐτὰ πολλάκις διαφέρεσθαι: ποιήσω γὰρ διὰ σέ, ἔφη, Δίωνι τάδε. ἀξιῶ ἐκεῖνον ἀπολαβόντα τὰ ἑαυτοῦ οἰκεῖν μὲν ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ, μὴ ὡς φυγάδα δέ, ἀλλ᾽ ὡς αὐτῷ καὶ δεῦρο ἐξὸν ἀποδημεῖν, ὅταν ἐκείνῳ τε καὶ ἐμοὶ καὶ ὑμῖν τοῖς φίλοις κοινῇ συνδοκῇ: ταῦτα δ᾽ εἶναι μὴ ἐπιβουλεύοντος ἐμοί, τούτων δὲ ἐγγυητὰς γίγνεσθαι σέ τε καὶ τοὺς σοὺς οἰκείους καὶ τοὺς ἐνθάδε Δίωνος, ὑμῖν δὲ τὸ βέβαιον ἐκεῖνος παρεχέτω. τὰ χρήματα δὲ ἃ ἂν λάβῃ, κατὰ Πελοπόννησον μὲν καὶ Ἀθήνας κείσθω παρ᾽ οἷστισιν ἂν ὑμῖν δοκῇ, καρπούσθω δὲ δίων, μὴ κύριος δὲ ἄνευ ὑμῶν γιγνέσθω ἀνελέσθαι. ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκείνῳ μὲν οὐ σφόδρα πιστεύω τούτοις χρώμενον ἂν τοῖς χρήμασιν δίκαιον γίγνεσθαι περὶ ἐμέ—οὐ γὰρ ὀλίγα ἔσται—σοὶ δὲ καὶ τοῖς σοῖς μᾶλλον πεπίστευκα.

On the day after these things he came and made me a persuasive proposition: He was saying, ‘Let us-you and I-remove the frequent differences about Dion and his affairs from our way. For, I will do this on your account for Dion,' he said. 'I expect him to take his things and live in Peloponnese, not as a fugitive but thus: he is allowed to go abroad and return, whenever he and me and the friends with you agree with each other. But these things are to be only if he refrains from plotting against me, but you and your household and the ones near Dion become the surety of these things and let him supply you with his security. And the goods, whatever he takes, let them be stored up in Peloponnese and Athens with whomever you wish, and let Dion enjoy the interest. But do not allow him to gain control of it without you.’
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

Wes Wood
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Re: Plato's Epistles Translation Check

Post by Wes Wood » December 18th, 2015, 5:45 pm

cwconrad wrote:I'd like to see more context here. I don't see that this necessarily involves a loan, but χρώμενον ἂν τοῖς χρήμασιν does involve the potential control of funds or resources by the person in question. This is a neat example of the usage of participle with ἄν that SH recently called attention to.
Thank you for taking the time to look at it. I think my trouble is/was both lexical and syntactical, but I think I see what I messed up now. Though, my last translation probably replaced that error with several others. :lol:
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Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

cwconrad
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Re: Plato's Epistles Translation Check

Post by cwconrad » December 19th, 2015, 11:23 am

Wes Wood wrote:It took me a bit to track down the right passage. That particular snippet was all that I had in front of me. I had been doing a search looking at forms of πιστεύω and that popped up. Here is some context (which I think definitively proves I was wrong) and, for kicks and giggles, my stab at translating the part I didn't do yesterday.

τῇ μετὰ ταῦτα ἐλθὼν ἡμέρᾳ λέγει πρός με πιθανὸν λόγον: ‘ἐμοὶ καὶ σοὶ δίων,’ ἔφη, ‘καὶ τὰ Δίωνος ἐκποδὼν ἀπαλλαχθήτω τοῦ περὶ αὐτὰ πολλάκις διαφέρεσθαι: ποιήσω γὰρ διὰ σέ, ἔφη, Δίωνι τάδε. ἀξιῶ ἐκεῖνον ἀπολαβόντα τὰ ἑαυτοῦ οἰκεῖν μὲν ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ, μὴ ὡς φυγάδα δέ, ἀλλ᾽ ὡς αὐτῷ καὶ δεῦρο ἐξὸν ἀποδημεῖν, ὅταν ἐκείνῳ τε καὶ ἐμοὶ καὶ ὑμῖν τοῖς φίλοις κοινῇ συνδοκῇ: ταῦτα δ᾽ εἶναι μὴ ἐπιβουλεύοντος ἐμοί, τούτων δὲ ἐγγυητὰς γίγνεσθαι σέ τε καὶ τοὺς σοὺς οἰκείους καὶ τοὺς ἐνθάδε Δίωνος, ὑμῖν δὲ τὸ βέβαιον ἐκεῖνος παρεχέτω. τὰ χρήματα δὲ ἃ ἂν λάβῃ, κατὰ Πελοπόννησον μὲν καὶ Ἀθήνας κείσθω παρ᾽ οἷστισιν ἂν ὑμῖν δοκῇ, καρπούσθω δὲ δίων, μὴ κύριος δὲ ἄνευ ὑμῶν γιγνέσθω ἀνελέσθαι. ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκείνῳ μὲν οὐ σφόδρα πιστεύω τούτοις χρώμενον ἂν τοῖς χρήμασιν δίκαιον γίγνεσθαι περὶ ἐμέ—οὐ γὰρ ὀλίγα ἔσται—σοὶ δὲ καὶ τοῖς σοῖς μᾶλλον πεπίστευκα.’
I think we understand the sense of this the same way; I like the way you go about Englishing the Greek. For what it's worth, here's my slightly different formulation:
On the next day he brought before me a compelling proposal: “Let’s you and I stop all arguing repeatedly about Dion and matters concerning Dion,” he said. “For your sake I’ll arrange for Dion as follows: I propose that he take his possessions and resettle in the Pelopponese, not as an exile, but as free to resettle here also, whenever it’s agreeable to myself and you his friends in common. That’s to hold so long as he isn’t plotting against me, and you and your kinsmen and Dion’s people here are to guarantee that, and he is to offer assurances to you. And whatever funds he takes should be deposited in the Pelopponese and Athens with whoever suits you, and Dion should enjoy its use, but without the authority to spend it apart from you. For I don’t quite trust him to be fair in my regard if he should use those funds — it’s a considerable amount — but I trust you and your kinfolk more.”
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

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