Translation and Understanding Check Request

Discussion of Greek texts that do not fall into the other categories, including texts in other dialects or texts from other periods.
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Wes Wood
Posts: 686
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Translation and Understanding Check Request

Post by Wes Wood » January 6th, 2016, 12:01 am

The parts underlined are the parts I am most uncertain about. I have tried to be more 'literal' in my treatment of those areas. If you see anything else wrong, though, please let me know. There are two different questionable sections divided by vertical lines.
καὶ σχεδὸν ἀνευρήσεις, οὕτω σκοπῶν, τὸν Κρητῶν νομοθέτην ὡς εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ἅπαντα δημοσίᾳ καὶ ἰδίᾳ τὰ νόμιμα ἡμῖν ἀποβλέπων συνετάξατο, καὶ κατὰ ταῦτα οὕτω φυλάττειν παρέδωκε τοὺς νόμους, ||| ὡς τῶν ἄλλων οὐδενὸς οὐδὲν ὄφελος ὂν οὔτε κτημάτων οὔτ᾽ ἐπιτηδευμάτων, ἂν μὴ τῷ πολέμῳ ἄρα κρατῇ τις, πάντα δὲ τὰ τῶν νικωμένων ἀγαθὰ τῶν νικώντων γίγνεσθαι.
And perhaps you will realize, simply by considering the matter, that the Cretan lawgiver established all these public and private customs for us with war in mind, and likewise he gave [us] the laws to protect [us]. None of these other things, not one, is useful, neither [people’s] possessions nor modes of life if someone else conquers [them] in war, but all the good things of the conquered people become [the good things] of the conqueror.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

cwconrad
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Re: Translation and Understanding Check Request

Post by cwconrad » January 6th, 2016, 9:01 am

Wes Wood wrote:The parts underlined are the parts I am most uncertain about. I have tried to be more 'literal' in my treatment of those areas. If you see anything else wrong, though, please let me know. There are two different questionable sections divided by vertical lines.
καὶ σχεδὸν ἀνευρήσεις, οὕτω σκοπῶν, τὸν Κρητῶν νομοθέτην ὡς εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ἅπαντα δημοσίᾳ καὶ ἰδίᾳ τὰ νόμιμα ἡμῖν ἀποβλέπων συνετάξατο, καὶ κατὰ ταῦτα οὕτω φυλάττειν παρέδωκε τοὺς νόμους, ||| ὡς τῶν ἄλλων οὐδενὸς οὐδὲν ὄφελος ὂν οὔτε κτημάτων οὔτ᾽ ἐπιτηδευμάτων, ἂν μὴ τῷ πολέμῳ ἄρα κρατῇ τις, πάντα δὲ τὰ τῶν νικωμένων ἀγαθὰ τῶν νικώντων γίγνεσθαι.
And perhaps you will realize, simply by considering the matter, that the Cretan lawgiver established all these public and private customs for us with war in mind, and likewise he gave [us] the laws to protect [us]. None of these other things, not one, is useful, neither [people’s] possessions nor modes of life if someone else conquers [them] in war, but all the good things of the conquered people become [the good things] of the conqueror.
I hesitate again to probe the work of anyone who dares, as you have done, to contemplate Plato's Laws in all seriousness, but you did ask. I'd suggest that the ἡμῖν continues in effect from the prior clause and functions with παρέδωκε and οὕτω φυλάττειν ... ὡς ... : "and by the same token he bade us observe (φυλ!αττειν) the laws therefore (οὕτω), for the reason that (ὡς) nothing else whatsoever ... is of any use, if ... " I think that παραδιδόναι can have this sense of "instruct." My 2c.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Wes Wood
Posts: 686
Joined: September 20th, 2013, 8:18 pm

Re: Translation and Understanding Check Request

Post by Wes Wood » January 6th, 2016, 10:01 am

You need not fear; I will be better for it! Thank you. That makes much better sense. I am still having trouble with certain infinitives, but I've yet to determine what the common link (or links) between them is. Sometimes I even feel like participles are easier than infinitives. :shock:
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ

cwconrad
Posts: 2109
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Translation and Understanding Check Request

Post by cwconrad » January 6th, 2016, 11:01 am

Wes Wood wrote:You need not fear; I will be better for it! Thank you. That makes much better sense. I am still having trouble with certain infinitives, but I've yet to determine what the common link (or links) between them is. Sometimes I even feel like participles are easier than infinitives. :shock:
I hesitate (I'm always saying that, and then I go ahead and do whatever it is that I say I hesitate to do) to say anything about infinitives; they are like vestigial verbs, orphaned from context, although they have aspect and voice. It's said that Greek infinitive ending all or mostly derive from dative-case endings (esp. -αι), which may or may not have anything to do with linkage with "to" in English, "zu" in German, etc., etc., etc.

For me the puzzlement in Koine Greek tends to be the wide-ranging usage of ἐν + dative. It's present in older Attic, but not much. In the Koine it seems sort of vague in the manner of colloquial American English "like". One of the most puzzling phrases to me has always been ἐν Χριστῷ, and that phrase has been latched onto by English users with the same faddish simplicity as we hear a person described with the phrase, "a good Christian man" -- whenever I hear that said of someone, I wonder whether that's quite the compliment it's intended to be.

I know this is not the place to ruminate, but that's what I tend to do when I get out in this pasture.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

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