Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

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Peter Streitenberger
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Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » July 6th, 2016, 12:02 pm

Dear friends,

I tried to find other examples to the expression "καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν" (and he made us a kingdom), which I don't understand completely. A parallel passage is Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1. I quote the whole chapter. Aristoteles discusses the several kinds and forms of building a state and names Democracy, Aristocracy and the form with a King, a Kingdom. He describes each form. I'm interested in the explanation of the Kingdom:

3.
τῆς πολιτείας ἐστὶν εἴδη πέντε· τὸ μὲν γὰρ αὐτῆς ἐστι δημοκρατικόν, ἄλλο δὲ ἀριστοκρατικόν, τρίτον δὲ ὀλι- γαρχικόν, τέταρτον βασιλικόν, γαρχικόν, τέταρτον βασιλικόν, πέμπτον τυραννικόν. δημοκρατικὸν μὲν οὖν ἐστιν, ἐν αἷς πόλεσι κρατεῖ τὸ πλῆθος καὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς καὶ τοὺς νόμους δι’ ἑαυτοῦ αἱρεῖται· ἀρι-
στοκρατία δέ ἐστιν, ἐν ᾗ μήθ’ οἱ πλούσιοι μήθ’ οἱ πένητες μήθ’ οἱ ἔνδοξοι ἄρχουσιν, ἀλλ’ οἱ ἄριστοι τῆς πόλεως προστατοῦσιν. ὀλιγαρχία δέ ἐστιν, ὅταν ἀπὸ τιμημάτων αἱ ἀρχαὶ αἱρῶνται· ἐλάττους γάρ εἰσιν οἱ πλούσιοι τῶν πενήτων. τῆς δὲ βασιλείας ἡ μὲν κατὰ νόμον, ἡ δὲ κατὰ γένος ἐστίν. ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐν Καρχηδόνι κατὰ νόμον· πωλητὴ γάρ ἐστιν. ἡ δὲ ἐν Λακεδαίμονι καὶ Μακεδονίᾳ κατὰ γένος· ἀπὸ γάρ τινος γένους ποιοῦνται τὴν βασιλείαν. τυραννὶς δέ ἐστιν, ...................

I think this passage is not yet translated anywhere, but I think it is good to understand, besides one opposition, which is in the kingdom part: κατὰ νόμον versus κατὰ γένος. The later is a reign according to ancestors with a legal right on the throne, but what is κατὰ νόμον ? According to habit/law seems at the first sight correct, but why does Aristoteles state that this form ist for sale (πωλητὴ γάρ ἐστιν)? Or does that mean something different? I'd say if the rulers get appointed according to law, that's the opposite of being able to buy the throne.
For the Bible-reader is interesting, that "καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν" has a parallel in this section, inasmuch the kingdom is built up by a certain group of kings from a certain line of lineage.

So is anyone able to explain the form of kingdom which functions κατὰ νόμον ? A good translation would make my day.

Yours Peter, Germany
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » July 6th, 2016, 3:46 pm

From Diogenes Laertius LCL Harvard UP 1925
Τῆς πολιτείας ἐστὶν εἴδη πέντε· τὸ μὲν γὰρ αὐτῆς ἐστι δημοκρατικόν, ἄλλο δὲ ἀριστοκρατικόν, τρίτον δὲ ὀλιγαρχικόν, τέταρτον βασιλικόν, πέμπτον τυραννικόν. δημοκρατικὸν μὲν οὖν ἐστιν, ἐν αἷς πόλεσι κρατεῖ τὸ πλῆθος καὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς καὶ τοὺς νόμους δι᾿ ἑαυτοῦ αἱρεῖται. ἀριστοκρατία δέ ἐστιν, ἐν ᾗ μήθ᾿ οἱ πλούσιοι μήθ᾿ οἱ πένητες μήθ᾿ οἱ ἔνδοξοι ἄρχουσιν, ἀλλ᾿ οἱ ἄριστοι τῆς πόλεως προστατοῦσιν. ὀλιγαρχία δέ ἐστιν, ὅταν ἀπὸ τιμημάτων αἱ ἀρχαὶ αἱρῶνται· ἐλάττους γάρ εἰσιν οἱ πλούσιοι τῶν πενήτων. τῆς δὲ βασιλείας ἡ μὲν κατὰ νόμον, ἡ δὲ κατὰ γένος ἐστίν. ἡ μὲν οὖν ἐν Καρχηδόνι κατὰ νόμον· πωλητὴ γάρ ἐστιν.
83
ἡ δὲ ἐν Λακεδαίμονι καὶ Μακεδονίᾳ κατὰ γένος· ἀπὸ γάρ τινος γένους ποιοῦνται τὴν βασιλείαν. τυραννὶς δέ ἐστιν, ἐν ᾗ παρακρουσθέντες ἢ βιασθέντες ὑπό τινος ἄρχονται. τῆς ἄρα πολιτείας ἡ μέν ἐστι δημοκρατία, ἡ δὲ ἀριστοκρατία, ἡ δὲ ὀλιγαρχία, ἡ δὲ βασιλεία, ἡ δὲ τυραννίς.


There are five forms of civil government: one form is democratic, another aristocratic, a third oligarchic, a fourth monarchic, a fifth that of a tyrant. The democratic form is that in which the people has control and chooses at its own pleasure both magistrates and laws. The aristocratic form is that in which the rulers are neither the rich nor the poor nor the nobles, but the state is under the guidance of the best. Oligarchy is that form in which there is a property-qualification for the holding of office; for the rich are fewer than the poor. Monarchy is either regulated by law or hereditary. At Carthage the kingship is regulated by law, the office being put up for sale.a But the monarchy in Lacedaemon and in Macedonia is hereditary, for they select the king from a certain family. A tyranny is that form in which the citizens are ruled either through fraud or force by an individual. Thus civil government is either democratic, aristocratic, oligarchic, or a monarchy or a tyranny.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » July 7th, 2016, 5:12 am

Hello Bart,
ok, that is with an English translation. Thank you. I accept it as it is, but I still can't figure out the sense, because if a kingdom is established according to the law, the throne would not be open for sale. But that is my personal modern impression, I don't know what the old folks had in mind.
I have no clue what to say today to such a description.
Yours
Peter
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 7th, 2016, 1:47 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:"καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν" (and he made us a kingdom), which I don't understand completely.
...
For the Bible-reader is interesting, that "καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν" has a parallel in this section, inasmuch the kingdom is built up by a certain group of kings from a certain line of lineage.
Just about the meaning, do you realise that through the ἐποίησεν we went from being just ἡμᾶς to being a βασιλεία? It means, "He made us into a kingdom," it doesn't mean, "He made a kingdom for us.".
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » July 7th, 2016, 5:27 pm

Dear Stephen,

"He made us into a kingdom"
wouldn't that require a preposition as EIS?

But you wrote:
>"He made a kingdom for us.".
Right ! That is surely not the sense.


The rendering without the most implication would, I'd guess, be: "he made us (maybe: to) a kingdom". Which makes sense in light of the quoted parallel passage. A kingdom consists of the people in it. And that is what he made out of us. So the kingdom stands for his inhabitants, the people ruled by the king.

Yours
Peter
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 7th, 2016, 11:43 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:"He made us into a kingdom"
wouldn't that require a preposition as EIS?
Because we are dealing with three languages here, let me take a moment to talk about the idioms of the English and the Greek.

ποιέω +2 acc. is the causative of ἐγενήθημεν +nom (in the first or second person - the internal subject is clearer in those 2 persons) or ἐγένετο / ἐγένοντο + 2 nom. (in the third person). If ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν were expressed without referring to the person who caused it to happen, it would be ἐγενήθημεν βασιλεία. The question that begs is whether the βασιλεία had previously been constituted before the ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν? Or whether it was brought into being for the first time by this action. I'm not sure whether that can be known on the basis of the Greek, but it is clear the the ἡμᾶς was not before, but because so for the first time through the action of the ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν.

The English idiom "to make something into something else" uses the "into" to indicate that a noun is coming. "Make him happy." doesn't require it because "happy" is an adjective. "Make this flour, water, yeast, cheese, salami and tomato paste into a pizza" requires "into" in the English idiom because "a pizza" is a nominal phrase. Other phrases that can act like adjectives do not require the "into" either - "The chef made the kid's birthday cake like a fairy princess' castle." doesn't have "into" because the "like" causes the nominal phrase to function as an adjective. The Greek word εἰς does not have the function of marking that there is a noun after tbe verb ποιέω. To put that another way, the structures used in Greek for nouns and adjectives are not differentiated. The difference between noun and adjective in Greek is marked in some cases (when there is a possibility of confusion) by the (Greek) definite article.

If we were to find it, εἰς +acc. would express the (immediate, primary or sole, as opposed to πρός +acc.) reason or the plan he had on making us, and βασιλεία would probably be meant in a more abstract sense ("a kingship"), and possibly passive ("to be ruled") as the ἀνάμνησις in Luke 22:19 could be understood as abstract (as opposed to the τοῦτο) and passive in the sense that others would remember it. (cf. Romans 9:21, where τιμή and ἀτιμία where they would be valued or not subjectively - in the appreciation of others, but the potter still makes the same effort).
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 8th, 2016, 12:13 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Which makes sense in light of the quoted parallel passage.
Peter Streitenberger wrote:I accept it as it is.
The ποιοῦνται τὴν βασιλείαν of the quoted passage has been very freely rendered as "they select the king". Perhaps you would like to discuss your understanding of the Greek of Aristotle in terms of the meaning of individual words, voice and syntactic construction.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » July 8th, 2016, 7:23 am

Dear Stephen,

thank you for your further explanations ! I just came up with a rendering as "and made us a kingdom" because it's in the Darby-translation, which I prefer. Of course I'm not an English native speaker and so I accept and appreciate your explanation. For my understanding "and made us into a kingdom" encoded a direction by using "into", but when it's an idiom - ok. I did not know that, being German. "made us a kingdom" would, if I understand you correctly, mean, that he made a kingdom for us in the sense of "he created a kingdom for our behalf". But I'm not sure if I got this point right.

The Perseus translation of a passage in Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.28) renders:

"Amyntas, the father of these little children, when he was alive, made you his son"
The Syntax of the Greek Original is similar to Aristoteles and John in Rev.:

εἶπεν ὅτι «Ἀμύντας ὁ πατὴρ τῶν παίδων τούτων, ὅτ’ ἔζη, υἱὸν ἐποιήσατό σε

But in Germany we'd use "er machte dich zu einem Sohn" using a preposition. Is the literal rendering without a preposition "he made you a son" bad English? But I could not google "made you into/unto a son". So the literal rendering in this case could work. But remember, I'm not a native speaker :-)

Yours
Peter, Germany
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 8th, 2016, 8:56 am

Does "and made us a kingdom" (Darby) mean that we became a people for him to rule, or that he made a kingdom then invited us to come in. Are we the kingdom he made?

Is there an essential change?

"He made us a birthday cake." means he prepared the cake for us. "Experience made him (into) a better soldier." is either an attribute the fellow has, or an essential change. Making (causing sb to become) his son, adds an attribute, I think.
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 208
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Aristoteles, Divisiones 5col1 - as parallel to Rev. 1.6

Post by Peter Streitenberger » July 8th, 2016, 10:02 am

ok, I understand, Stephen. Would a suitable paraphrase then be: "And he made us unto people in his reign"?
Thanks for all help so far.
Yours Peter
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