A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

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Stephen Hughes
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A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 27th, 2016, 5:41 am

Phocylides, pg 59 of Volume IV of the Greek Anthology, ed. W. R. Paton wrote:
γνήσιός εἰμι φίλος, καὶ τὸν φίλον ὡς φίλον οἶδα,
τοὺς δὲ κακοὺς διόλου πάντας ἀποστρέφομαι:
οὐδένα θωπεύω πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν: οὓς δ᾽ ἄρα τιμῶ,
τούτους ἐξ ἀρχῆς μέχρι τέλους ἀγαπῶ.
Any guesses to what the meaning of οὐδένα θωπεύειν πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν might be. LSJ's entry for θωπεύειν just has it with the accusative, but not in constructions. Perhaps, something similar might be in Matthew 6:1, or Luke 12:47.
Matthew 6:1 wrote:Προσέχετε τὴν ἐλεημοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μήγε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.
Luke12:47 wrote:Ἐκεῖνος δὲ ὁ δοῦλος ὁ γνοὺς τὸ θέλημα τοῦ κυρίου ἑαυτοῦ, καὶ μὴ ἑτοιμάσας μηδὲ ποιήσας πρὸς τὸ θέλημα αὐτοῦ, δαρήσεται πολλάς·
It seems like πρός is the one common word in the New Testament, which may as well have a separate entry for the word for each authour; πρός (Mt.) - metaphorical and physical, πρός (Mk.) - physical, πρός (Lk. and Jn.) - physical, verbs of speaking. While there are some similarities (physical direction of movement and / or stationary relationship to reference points), different people have quite different patterns of using it.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by cwconrad » July 27th, 2016, 10:29 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Phocylides, pg 59 of Volume IV of the Greek Anthology, ed. W. R. Paton wrote:
γνήσιός εἰμι φίλος, καὶ τὸν φίλον ὡς φίλον οἶδα,
τοὺς δὲ κακοὺς διόλου πάντας ἀποστρέφομαι:
οὐδένα θωπεύω πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν: οὓς δ᾽ ἄρα τιμῶ,
τούτους ἐξ ἀρχῆς μέχρι τέλους ἀγαπῶ.
Any guesses to what the meaning of οὐδένα θωπεύειν πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν might be. LSJ's entry for θωπεύειν just has it with the accusative, but not in constructions. Perhaps, something similar might be in Matthew 6:1, or Luke 12:47.
Matthew 6:1 wrote:Προσέχετε τὴν ἐλεημοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μήγε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.
Luke12:47 wrote:Ἐκεῖνος δὲ ὁ δοῦλος ὁ γνοὺς τὸ θέλημα τοῦ κυρίου ἑαυτοῦ, καὶ μὴ ἑτοιμάσας μηδὲ ποιήσας πρὸς τὸ θέλημα αὐτοῦ, δαρήσεται πολλάς·
It seems like πρός is the one common word in the New Testament, which may as well have a separate entry for the word for each authour; πρός (Mt.) - metaphorical and physical, πρός (Mk.) - physical, πρός (Lk. and Jn.) - physical, verbs of speaking. While there are some similarities (physical direction of movement and / or stationary relationship to reference points), different people have quite different patterns of using it.
Since you're explicitly open to guesses, I'll venture that the sense of πρὸς in the epigram of Phocylides as well as in these Nt phrases, is something like "with a view to" or "in consideration of."
οὐδένα θωπεύω πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν = "I don't butter people up pretentiously."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

S Walch
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by S Walch » July 27th, 2016, 10:39 am

Reading it, I would think it parallels John 1:1 more than anything (with regards to the meaning of προς), προς υποκρισιν "with hypocrisy" = "hypocritically", so: οὐδένα θωπεύω πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν "I don't flatter anyone hypocritically".

A quick google had produced quite a few results of προς υποκρισιν, this being of interest methinks (line 10-11).

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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 27th, 2016, 11:20 am

cwconrad wrote:Since you're explicitly open to guesses, I'll venture that the sense of πρὸς in the epigram of Phocylides as well as in these Nt phrases, is something like "with a view to" or "in consideration of."
οὐδένα θωπεύω πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν = "I don't butter people up pretentiously."
Cleaving the the angels' dance floor in twain, let me ask if by using the πρός, the motivation (internal hypocrisy) is expresses, the desire to make a show to the person being flattered or pandered to themself, or as a show to (a great many others) onlookers to the spectacle? I took it rather temerariously from context to be, "I don't kiss arse to make friends", but now I feel I may have trampled on the flowers to get to the garden - as you say, I guessed.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

cwconrad
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by cwconrad » July 27th, 2016, 12:22 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
cwconrad wrote:Since you're explicitly open to guesses, I'll venture that the sense of πρὸς in the epigram of Phocylides as well as in these Nt phrases, is something like "with a view to" or "in consideration of."
οὐδένα θωπεύω πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν = "I don't butter people up pretentiously."
Cleaving the the angels' dance floor in twain, let me ask if by using the πρός, the motivation (internal hypocrisy) is expresses, the desire to make a show to the person being flattered or pandered to themself, or as a show to (a great many others) onlookers to the spectacle? I took it rather temerariously from context to be, "I don't kiss arse to make friends", but now I feel I may have trampled on the flowers to get to the garden - as you say, I guessed.
I take it you want to know whether I've stopped beating my wife, with a view to play-acting; I'll parry your thrust, thank you (hypocritically, to be sure), and give you instead an honest reply: I take it that πρὸς indicates an inclination, as in "When courting friends, I am not at all inclined to put on airs" -- quite unlike Odysseus, who enjoyed nothing more than pretending to be somebody other than himself, for which reason he was termed πολύτροπος by Homer, versutus by Livius Andronicus, while Horace called him the spade that he was, duplex Ulixes. In Odyssey 13 Athena herself marvels at his readiness to put on a mask in front of her.
That is to say, I think that Pherecydes' epigram is intended to express guilelessness.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 27th, 2016, 12:36 pm

S Walch wrote:Reading it, I would think it parallels John 1:1 more than anything (with regards to the meaning of προς),
You'll need to walk me through the stream here, I can't see a way to make the leap at this point of crossing. I considered that as a parallel, but couldn't find a clear sense of reference or directionality after getting to the level of abstraction.
S Walch wrote:προς υποκρισιν "with hypocrisy" = "hypocritically", so: οὐδένα θωπεύω πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν "I don't flatter anyone hypocritically".
Do you mean that πρός in πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν is just an unmarked or commonplace adverbialiser for ὑπόκρισις, like "with" is for "compassion" or as ἐπί is in, "ἐπ’ ἀληθείας" (what I believe would be an understandable complementary antonym of πρός were simply an adverbialiser)? Before posting, I had vacillated between whether πρός was served as standard fare with the θωπεύειν (what information I couldn't get from LSJ), or whether its pungent acridity was better suited to dance every dance on the card with a somewhat lightweight partner like ὑπόκρισις. That is to say that the very pointedness of πρός in marking some reference marker that we have to squint to make out clearly suggests that the distant reference marker doesn't need to be well known or properly explained.
S Walch wrote:A quick google had produced quite a few results of προς υποκρισιν, this being of interest methinks (line 10-11).
Thst is an interesting passage.

There are also hits for καθ᾽ ὑπόκρισιν and ἐς ὑπόκρισιν.

Perhaps the sense or connotation of θωπεύειν makes πρός rather than another more suitable here.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on July 27th, 2016, 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 27th, 2016, 12:42 pm

Am I right in being (slightly) befused at finding ὑπόκρισις in a standard secular meaning together with a Biblical word ἀγαπῶ?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

S Walch
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by S Walch » July 27th, 2016, 5:00 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
S Walch wrote:Reading it, I would think it parallels John 1:1 more than anything (with regards to the meaning of προς),
You'll need to walk me through the stream here, I can't see a way to make the leap at this point of crossing. I considered that as a parallel, but couldn't find a clear sense of reference or directionaloty after getting to the level of abstraction.
When I first read the passage cited, my initial reaction was reading προς as meaning "with", of which one can only really recall John 1:1 immediately after thinking such - I don't believe there's a more famous passage where προς means "with" than that. That was about as close as the parallel got. :)
Stephen Hughes wrote:Do you mean that πρός in πρὸς ὑπόκρισιν is just an unmarked or commonplace adverbialiser for ὑπόκρισις, like "with" is for "compassion" or as ἐπί is in, "ἐπ’ ἀληθείας" (what I believe would be an understandable complementary antonym of πρός were simply an adverbialiser)?
Yes, this was my thinking. υποκριτικά wasn't around at the time of Phocylides. Guess we could understand προς here as something along the lines of "to the point of being" or "with a view to acting"
Stephen Hughes wrote:Before posting, I had vacillated between whether πρός was served as standard fare with the θωπεύειν (what information I couldn't get from LSJ), or whether its pungent acridity was better suited to dance every dance on the card with a somewhat lightweight partner like ὑπόκρισις. That is to say that the very pointedness of πρός in marking some reference marker that we have to squint to make out clearly suggests that the distant reference marker doesn't need to be well known or properly explained.
I've not yet been able to find any other place where θωπεύειν (or it's inflections) appear with προς except here in Phocylides. That's quite telling for what I can gather.
Stephen Hughes wrote:That is an interesting passage.

There are also hits for καθ᾽ ὑπόκρισιν and ἐς ὑπόκρισιν.

Perhaps the sense or connotation of θωπεύειν makes πρός rather than another more suitable here.
I also couldn't find any use of θωπεύειν with any other preposition either.

Either the Greek manuscripts are lacking in this case, or θωπευω is not used very much in the literature

Stephen Hughes
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 27th, 2016, 8:05 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:Am I right in being (slightly) befused at finding ὑπόκρισις in a standard secular meaning together with a Biblical word ἀγαπῶ?
S Walch wrote:υποκριτικά wasn't around at the time of Phocylides.
My statement was wrong. It is the noun ἀγάπη that is of recent (LXX) vintage, not the verb.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: A question about πρός in an epigram about friends.

Post by Stephen Hughes » July 27th, 2016, 8:31 pm

cwconrad wrote:That is to say, I think that Pherecydes' epigram is intended to express guilelessness.
Rather than ask a "Why didn't he say ....? question, let me ask which Greek word do you think is closest to you idea of what you think he meant by guileless? The words that come to my mind expressing that sort of meaning are; ἁπλοῦς, γνήσιος or εἰλικρινής, but they are in the positive and the two I recognise from an LSJ English search are ἄδολος or ἄκακος with the "-less" expressed by the alpha privative. Do any of those express what you mean by his idea of "guileless". There may probably be better ones.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

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