Hello,
My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου
The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):
ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·
I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
Heb. 2:17
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Re: Heb. 2:17
As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?tverenna wrote:Hello,
My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου
The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):
ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
In my opinion κατὰ πάντα can only be construed with τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, not with ὤφειλεν.tverenna wrote:And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·
I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Re: Heb. 2:17
As far as I can tell, yes.cwconrad wrote:As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?tverenna wrote:Hello,
My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου
The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):
ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
Could you explain?cwconrad wrote:In my opinion κατὰ πάντα can only be construed with τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, not with ὤφειλεν.tverenna wrote:And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·
I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
Re: Heb. 2:17
Here is the text from the Westcott-Hort, if that helps:
ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα “τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς” ὁμοιωθῆναι, ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν, εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ:
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Re: Heb. 2:17
If I had to guess, the text was copied and pasted from a morphologically tagged version in which all the lexical forms came over instead of the inflected forms.cwconrad wrote:As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?tverenna wrote: The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):
ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
Stephen
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: Heb. 2:17
Perhaps Stephen Carlson's guess is right about this.tverenna wrote:As far as I can tell, yes.cwconrad wrote:As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?tverenna wrote:Hello,
My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου
The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):
ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
Well, as I see it, κατὰ πάντα means "in every respect" or "on all counts," or "completely." I think "be like his brothers in every respect" makes sense, but "in every sense must" doesn't make much sense.cwconrad wrote:In my opinion κατὰ πάντα can only be construed with τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, not with ὤφειλεν.tverenna wrote:And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:
οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·
I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
Could you explain?
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Re: Heb. 2:17
My rendering would be more akin to: 'Where he was obligated, in accordance with all things, he was made…" It just appears to me that the Greek works grammatically, but I agree the context is off and it would be on me to show that such a use appears in other texts. There is a mention in 1 Clement with a very similar phrasing 'opheilomen kata panta eucharistein autôi', but the context is different. Stephen mentioned the possibility of it being something of an intensifier if it was assumed that it could be read in the proposed manner, but I imagine it is still a stretch.
Thanks for your help.
Thanks for your help.
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Re: Heb. 2:17
I don't have the text of Clement in front of me (could you provide a citation?) but wouldn't the snippet you quoted mean 'we ought to give thanks to him in every respect' rather than 'we ought in every respect to give thanks to him' and thus correspond to the standard rendering of Hebrews 2:17 rather than to your proposed rendering?
Re: Heb. 2:17
The text again (NA27): Heb. 2:17 ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ.tverenna wrote:My rendering would be more akin to: 'Where he was obligated, in accordance with all things, he was made…" It just appears to me that the Greek works grammatically, but I agree the context is off and it would be on me to show that such a use appears in other texts. There is a mention in 1 Clement with a very similar phrasing 'opheilomen kata panta eucharistein autôi', but the context is different. Stephen mentioned the possibility of it being something of an intensifier if it was assumed that it could be read in the proposed manner, but I imagine it is still a stretch..
I am still at a loss as to how you're understanding κατὰ πάντα as construing with ὤφειλεν. Is there any way that an obligation can be partial or less than total?
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)