Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Grammar questions which are not related to any specific text.
daveburt
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by daveburt » November 7th, 2017, 5:14 am

RandallButh wrote:
November 6th, 2017, 6:43 pm
The NT verb debates do not reflect Greek reality or Greek options, but they did reflect fairly widespread weakness in Greek and in linguistics among NT practitioners.
I hope this is not stretching the thread too far off topic, but it's a concerning statement on a confusing area. As a student and a participant in a learning community, how can I stay out of the weeds described here? (Both in Greek and the Hebrew 'leaning towers'?)

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 7th, 2017, 9:06 am

daveburt wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 5:14 am
RandallButh wrote:
November 6th, 2017, 6:43 pm
The NT verb debates do not reflect Greek reality or Greek options, but they did reflect fairly widespread weakness in Greek and in linguistics among NT practitioners.
I hope this is not stretching the thread too far off topic, but it's a concerning statement on a confusing area. As a student and a participant in a learning community, how can I stay out of the weeds described here? (Both in Greek and the Hebrew 'leaning towers'?)
I would suggest simply focusing on the basics. People have been successfully studying and learning ancient Greek for the past couple of millennia or so before there was any academic discussion on verbal aspect, and you can do it too. Learn your paradigms, increase your vocabulary, read lots of Greek. I wouldn't even think about theory at that level until you are well along at the intermediate stage or beyond.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

RandallButh
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by RandallButh » November 7th, 2017, 1:24 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 9:06 am
daveburt wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 5:14 am
RandallButh wrote:
November 6th, 2017, 6:43 pm
The NT verb debates do not reflect Greek reality or Greek options, but they did reflect fairly widespread weakness in Greek and in linguistics among NT practitioners.
I hope this is not stretching the thread too far off topic, but it's a concerning statement on a confusing area. As a student and a participant in a learning community, how can I stay out of the weeds described here? (Both in Greek and the Hebrew 'leaning towers'?)
I would suggest simply focusing on the basics. People have been successfully studying and learning ancient Greek for the past couple of millennia or so before there was any academic discussion on verbal aspect, and you can do it too. Learn your paradigms, increase your vocabulary, read lots of Greek. I wouldn't even think about theory at that level until you are well along at the intermediate stage or beyond.
Ναί.
καὶ ταῦτα ἀναγινώσκων λάλει σεαυτῶ καὶ φίλοις. μαθήσῃ τὸ ἀπαρεμφατὸν, παρατατικὸν καὶ ἀόριστον, καλὼς [you will learn the infinitive in continuative and aorist aspects well.]

MAubrey
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by MAubrey » November 7th, 2017, 3:12 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 4:50 am
Dear Mike, reading thru your thesis I stumbled on that claim: "The Apocalypse of John, written by a non-native speaker provides more opportunity for finding ungrammatical clauses than most texts".
Having studied the Greek text of Revelation for some years I have to say, that your sentence is more than false. Sorry to say that. We could open a new threat on that, but I dont know if it is my duty to teach you otherwise, if your mind is already set, that John could not do the Greek. I know he did. There is no single verse, not to be explained, no verse is somehow ungrammatical, so I wont read your paper any longer, as this is too much for me. My paper on the Greek text of Revelation will soon appear, in German, but I claim exactly the opposite. Yours Peter P.S. I just decided not to debate with you an issue where fundamental differences are between us both and I see no sense as common ground is not to be expected - I could send you a verse by verse commentary on each Greek Verse of Rev. soon (in German, a pre pup if you will as well), I am about to end the project after some years of study (much research with TLG for almost each verse). So I dont debate with you on that. That ends my comment on your thesis.
It's a rather odd choice to decide from the start that "common ground is not to be expected." But if that's what you want, I'm fine with that.

Either way, my work isn't about Revelation and one's position on the question is not relevant to any of my goals in the thesis.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 7th, 2017, 6:35 pm

Okay, I've started a new topic for the discussion of solecisms in Revelation here:

viewtopic.php?f=6&p=28435#p28435
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

daveburt
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Joined: October 30th, 2017, 11:18 pm

Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by daveburt » November 7th, 2017, 11:02 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 9:06 am
I would suggest simply focusing on the basics. People have been successfully studying and learning ancient Greek for the past couple of millennia or so before there was any academic discussion on verbal aspect, and you can do it too. Learn your paradigms, increase your vocabulary, read lots of Greek. I wouldn't even think about theory at that level until you are well along at the intermediate stage or beyond.
RandallButh wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 1:24 pm
Ναί.
καὶ ταῦτα ἀναγινώσκων λάλει σεαυτῶ καὶ φίλοις. μαθήσῃ τὸ ἀπαρεμφατὸν, παρατατικὸν καὶ ἀόριστον, καλὼς [you will learn the infinitive in continuative and aorist aspects well.]
Εὐχαριστώ πολλά ἀμφότεροί σοι διά την παράκλησιν ταύτην. Νυν δει με εὐρίσκειν φίλους οἱ Κοίνη Ελληνικά δὐνονται λαλείν! (Thanks both of you for this encouragement. Now I just need to find friends who can speak Koine Greek ... and to learn appropriate placement of accents!)

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 10th, 2017, 11:19 am

RandallButh wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 1:18 pm
The equivalency ει / ι as /i/ will come up in the presentation by Tyndale House at ETS this year (Nov 2017) on their new edition of Mark. It appears that the early texts of the GNT used ει as ι a lot, and this has implications for manuscript evaluation and tracing genealogy.
These same spellings are used in Nestle 1904. When did they change in modern editions of NA, and why?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

RandallButh
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by RandallButh » November 10th, 2017, 11:58 am

Tyndale Mark is more consistent and wider in following mss spellings than WH.
I dont know when the spelling normalization took place. For a while it was referred to as having "experts" in first century spelling edit the spelling. That was a sick joke, a euphemism for changing the spelling to fit Erasmian pronunciation. The field is slowly waking up.

MAubrey
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by MAubrey » November 10th, 2017, 4:44 pm

MAubrey wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 3:00 pm
RandallButh wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 1:18 pm
MAubrey wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 12:34 am

It's been so long, that I genuinely can't remember...
If you haven't read it recently, I would recommend a quick read/review (10-30 min) through
" Ἡ Κοινὴ Προφορά Koiné Pronunciation: Notes on the Pronunciation System of Koiné Greek"
https://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/ ... unciation/
(The PDF is recommended because of preserving formatting in the tables.)

The equivalency ει / ι as /i/ will come up in the presentation by Tyndale House at ETS this year (Nov 2017) on their new edition of Mark. It appears that the early texts of the GNT used ει as ι a lot, and this has implications for manuscript evaluation and tracing genealogy. Pete Williams claims that B (Vaticanus) consistently preserves etymological length with long ει versus short ι.
This appears to be a scholastic redaction since earlier papyri (e.g. p46) do not show such care.
When I say I can't remember, I mean I can't remember why I made the orthographic choice. I know the phonology. I have Gignac within arms length of where I'm typing.
Randall, this is really driving me nuts. Off and on throughout the week, I've been looking for a reason why I made this choice and it's still a complete mystery. It might be just another embarrassing mistake for me to add to the existing list. :oops:
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
Koine-Greek.com

RandallButh
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Re: Opinions about the book "Basics of Verbal Aspect in Biblical Greek"

Post by RandallButh » November 10th, 2017, 5:52 pm

This is a little distant from the issue, but still related:

I recommend that linguists talk to themselves in Greek (personally and to each other), and then read texts (both original and edited publications) so that they activate the the spiraling self-correction that is inherent in open-eyed second-language use.

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