As I understand the German, the Ipf. is used for the start of an event which will continue for a longer (that's what it says) period of time, in contrast to the ingressive Ind. Aor. which denotes the starting point of an event but leaves the question of duration open.Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2018, 1:07 amI think we may need to be precise about what kind of beginning is supposed to meant. For example, Hoffmann-Siebenthal § 198e (who end up rejecting the category) distinguish between an "onset" and a "starting point":Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2018, 3:23 pm Logically he started teaching when he hadn't been teaching before, but there's no particular focus on the beginning in these examples.Presumably, this distinguishes between an interval of time at the beginning and the point in time at the beginning, but perhaps someone with better German than me can explicate the nuances of Einsetzen and Anfangspunkt.HS § 198e wrote:Damit verbunden ist möglicherweise eine Verwendungsart, die man als 'inchoatives' Ipf. bezeichnen könnte: das Ipf. bezieht sich auf das Einsetzen eines länger andauernden Geschehens (im Gegensatz dazu würde der ingressive Ind.Aor. den Anfangspunkt bezeichnen, aber das Andauern des Geschehens offenlassen, §199d):
Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
I'm not sure, but I think andauernd, used as an adjective, might mean "continuous" in the sense of "ongoing" here - "the onset of a longer continuous event" (as opposed to the ingressive Indicative Aorist, which denotes the starting point of an event but leaves the question of duration open).Shirley Rollinson wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2018, 10:00 pmAs I understand the German, the Ipf. is used for the start of an event which will continue for a longer (that's what it says) period of time, in contrast to the ingressive Ind. Aor. which denotes the starting point of an event but leaves the question of duration open.Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2018, 1:07 am I think we may need to be precise about what kind of beginning is supposed to meant. For example, Hoffmann-Siebenthal § 198e (who end up rejecting the category) distinguish between an "onset" and a "starting point":Presumably, this distinguishes between an interval of time at the beginning and the point in time at the beginning, but perhaps someone with better German than me can explicate the nuances of Einsetzen and Anfangspunkt.HS § 198e wrote:Damit verbunden ist möglicherweise eine Verwendungsart, die man als 'inchoatives' Ipf. bezeichnen könnte: das Ipf. bezieht sich auf das Einsetzen eines länger andauernden Geschehens (im Gegensatz dazu würde der ingressive Ind.Aor. den Anfangspunkt bezeichnen, aber das Andauern des Geschehens offenlassen, §199d):
As Stephen points out, he rejects the category. For the two examples he gives, he also gives alternative interpretations.
ἡ δὲ πρύμνα ἐλύετο ὑπὸ τῆς βίας.
inchoative: the stern began to break away
linear: the stern broke away more and more
conative: the stern threatened to break away
καὶ ἀνοίξας τὸ στόμα αὐτοῦ ἐδίδασκεν αὐτοὺς
inchoative: he began to teach
linear: he taught in detail
He has a nice overview of which grammars believe in ingressive aorist.
- Grammars that believe in ingressive aorist: Smyth §1900; Moule S.9; Robertson S.880/885; apparently Turner (1963) S.65/67 on Mk 1:31; perhaps Zerwick-Grosvenor S.xxi.
- Grammars that oppose this category: Schwyzer II S.277 (a standard text for ancient Greek).
- Grammars that do not mention the category: Kühner-Gerth, Burton, Wackernagel, Humbert, BR, Zerwick.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
That's helpful, but I'm wondering if Einsetzen has a different nuance from Anfangspunkt or if they are meant synonymously.Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑July 24th, 2018, 8:21 am I'm not sure, but I think andauernd, used as an adjective, might mean "continuous" in the sense of "ongoing" here - "the onset of a longer continuous event" (as opposed to the ingressive Indicative Aorist, which denotes the starting point of an event but leaves the question of duration open).
Wallace's survey of grammars seems to have not noticed that Hoffmann-Siebenthal rejects the category. I am also skeptical of Wallace's argument that grammars who support the conative implicitly support the inceptive.Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑July 24th, 2018, 8:21 am As Stephen points out, he rejects the category.
***
He has a nice overview of which grammars believe in ingressive aorist.
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
He's clearly trying to distinguish two things, and the "punkt" (point) part of Anfangspunkt (starting point) emphasizes a non-linear way of looking at it.Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑July 24th, 2018, 7:35 pm That's helpful, but I'm wondering if Einsetzen has a different nuance from Anfangspunkt or if they are meant synonymously.
In this context, I think Einsetzen is like the English "onset", like the onset of a condition. By itself, the word has a broader semantic range.
I hadn't read this grammar before, I bought the Kindle edition. I really like what I see.Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑July 24th, 2018, 7:35 pmWallace's survey of grammars seems to have not noticed that Hoffmann-Siebenthal rejects the category. I am also skeptical of Wallace's argument that grammars who support the conative implicitly support the inceptive.
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
OK. Having looked at the all the example, I'm satisfied that the so-called inceptive imperfect is not a category of its own (i.e. does not have a distinct sense), but a use case where the context resists a translation with the English past progressive. It's more of a quirk in the English aspectual system. It might be nice to see what Romance language translations do.
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
Where is the list of examples, or can you give some of them?Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑July 27th, 2018, 12:03 am OK. Having looked at the all the example, I'm satisfied that the so-called inceptive imperfect is not a category of its own (i.e. does not have a distinct sense), but a use case where the context resists a translation with the English past progressive. It's more of a quirk in the English aspectual system. It might be nice to see what Romance language translations do.
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
Here are the examples Mounce gave for the NET translation, with a few translations that render them variously.Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑July 27th, 2018, 5:38 amWhere is the list of examples, or can you give some of them?Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑July 27th, 2018, 12:03 am OK. Having looked at the all the example, I'm satisfied that the so-called inceptive imperfect is not a category of its own (i.e. does not have a distinct sense), but a use case where the context resists a translation with the English past progressive. It's more of a quirk in the English aspectual system. It might be nice to see what Romance language translations do.
Ingressive Imperfect Examples
I agree that this looks like a translation issue, and maybe a quirk in the English aspectual system. Here are the same examples in a Spanish and a French translation:
Ingressive Imperfect Examples (in Spanish and French)
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
Possibly another argument against the inceptive imperfect would be that when writers wanted to emphasize the beginning of the action, they had other more obvious ways to do so. Mark 2:23. καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἤρξαντο ὁδὸν ποιεῖν τίλλοντες τοὺς στάχυας. ἤρξαντο plus an infinitive is a common phrase in the NT. I'm guessing you could go out on a tiny limb and say that's the normal way to emphasize the beginning of the action.
Here in Mark, the idea is maybe that the disciples have begun clearing a road for Jesus, in the same way that John originally did. This would show development on their part. If that seems too trippy.... I'm deciding that reading Mark is like reading John. You have to read into everything. The tension with that, maybe, is that they were supposed to "come after" Jesus and follow him. But I guess the two are compatible...
Here in Mark, the idea is maybe that the disciples have begun clearing a road for Jesus, in the same way that John originally did. This would show development on their part. If that seems too trippy.... I'm deciding that reading Mark is like reading John. You have to read into everything. The tension with that, maybe, is that they were supposed to "come after" Jesus and follow him. But I guess the two are compatible...
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
This occurs with other verbs too.Garrett Tyson wrote: ↑July 27th, 2018, 8:47 am Possibly another argument against the inceptive imperfect would be that when writers wanted to emphasize the beginning of the action, they had other more obvious ways to do so. Mark 2:23. καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἤρξαντο ὁδὸν ποιεῖν τίλλοντες τοὺς στάχυας. ἤρξαντο plus an infinitive is a common phrase in the NT. I'm guessing you could go out on a tiny limb and say that's the normal way to emphasize the beginning of the action.
Often, the inceptive imperfect in these examples is simply an imperfect that occurs after an aorist when it's clear that the activity the imperfect describes could not have started before the event described by the aorist. The disciples came to him (aorist) and he taught them (imperfect). He wasn't teaching them before they came to him.
I suspect the ingressive aorist is a valid category, I'm beginning to lose faith in the ingressive imperfect.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: Rendering imperfective into English (an English question?)
Thanks, you beat me to it! The Vulgate:Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑July 27th, 2018, 7:47 am
Here are the examples Mounce gave for the NET translation, with a few translations that render them variously.
Ingressive Imperfect Examples
I agree that this looks like a translation issue, and maybe a quirk in the English aspectual system. Here are the same examples in a Spanish and a French translation:
Ingressive Imperfect Examples (in Spanish and French)
et dicebat eis vobis datum est mysterium regni Dei Illis autem qui foris sunt in parabolis omnia fiunt.
Simply uses the imperfect tense in Latin, which shares similar features to the imperfect in Greek, and so is not much of a help in the discussion. Allen & Greenough (New Latin Grammar p. 288) states: 'The Imperfect sometimes denotes an action as begun (Inceptive Imperfect), or as attempted or only intended (Conative Imperfect...)" but similar to our discussion here, the examples cited don't necessarily have to be read that way. It's more a function of context and how we render these things in English than an actual "category."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.