Convert from Erasmian

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John Eriugena
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Convert from Erasmian

Post by John Eriugena » February 19th, 2019, 1:28 pm

I'm found that there seem to be two distinct interpretations of Erasmian pronunciation in the recordings I've accessed. There's the British and the American, with each incorporating national pronunciation conventions. Some usages, however, seem to be pretty well idiosyncratic - the personal preference or habit of the speaker. Mounce, for example, pronounces ἀπό as if it were what would be represented in British Erasmian as ἀπα. Is there this kind of variation throughout the world, each adapting the system according to their own approximations? In which case, of course, wouldn't everyone post-Erasmus be adapting further his rather eccentric Northern European redaction of Koine Greek?

I have been meaning to convert to Restored Koine for a while now, and oddly enough it's only through writing that question out that I've realised that yes, I really have to take the plunge. I have lost my faith, I realise! So, has anyone out there advice on the best way to retrain oneself?
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » February 19th, 2019, 8:21 pm

I was amazed recently to run across someone on youtube[1] reading Ancient Greek and I could more or less follow it. Converting to something from something will not solve that problem. Hyper-local dialects will continue to multiply exponentially. The evangelists for "authentic" whatever are selling a product without substance.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lb2HPeO00I
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

MAubrey
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by MAubrey » February 20th, 2019, 4:54 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
February 19th, 2019, 8:21 pm
I was amazed recently to run across someone on youtube[1] reading Ancient Greek and I could more or less follow it. Converting to something from something will not solve that problem. Hyper-local dialects will continue to multiply exponentially. The evangelists for "authentic" whatever are selling a product without substance.

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lb2HPeO00I
At the incredibly slow speed the text is being read in that video, I'd be concerned if you couldn't follow it.
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Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Matthew Longhorn » February 23rd, 2019, 5:16 am

I have recently made the shift and the best advice I can give is read aloud, and get stuck into the International Phonetic Alphabet

By reading aloud I found that I had memorised many words with the stress on the wrong syllable. This made the transition harder for me than it would have been, but worth finding out.

Reading aloud with regularity is also key. Only doing it semi-regularly will make this harder.
stumbling over words is fine - keep trying them until they come naturally and reread the sentence / paragraph until it is normal to you.

Do you have a pronunciation guide? If not then I could stick the one I recently made as an attachment here for you.
Looking at the IPA pronunciation and listening to the sounds they give helps a lot. I found that as an English person, with a southern central English accent, I was reading the example of a pronunciation e.g. the a in father without realising that it was given by the author based on an American pronunciation

Finally, for great encouragement, watch some of the parables that Benjamin Kantor has done at his website
https://www.kainediatheke.com
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Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Matthew Longhorn » February 23rd, 2019, 12:18 pm

I should also point out, that I have been finding speaking Greek with a tutor helpful in this conversion. Some words still sound torturous to me, but doing speed drills of describing pictures, just reading aloud to him help a lot. It is nice to get the encouragement that, no, you really are getting there, or just a correction.
οὗ γένοιτό μοι Is currently causing me sore mouth and tongue muscles
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Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Matthew Longhorn » February 25th, 2019, 9:57 am

Hyper-local dialects will continue to multiply exponentially. The evangelists for "authentic" whatever are selling a product without substance.
Stirling, I am wondering if you could expand on this. Of course we can't get perfect pronunciation - I am currently trying to get an Australian and an Irish man to get to grips with the living koine pronunciation scheme - it is going to be an interesting process. With the use of IPA keyed pronunciation guides though, rather than simple descriptions of the sounds, I don't see why we cannot cut down on localism. Half the problem is looking at a book that tells me to pronounce something as (for example) Apple rather than Father for the alpha, and then me assuming they mean the way that I pronounce these words. I recently found out that my Irish friend doesn't distinguish between the two when speaking.
Further, the use of diagrams explaining where the sound should be generated in the mouth is helpful.

I guess what I am disagreeing with is your statement that it is selling a product without substance. Why is there no substance?
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » February 25th, 2019, 2:51 pm

Matthew Longhorn wrote:
February 25th, 2019, 9:57 am
I am currently trying to get an Australian and an Irish man to get to grips with ...
... [something other than Erasmus] ...

I have listened to dozens of people reading some form of Ancient Greek. If you want to talk with a hand full of people you might be able to pull this off. But don't expect anyone outside your little group to understand.

In my world the exercise is a totally meaningless waste of time. It matters not one whit how the words are said. We have had endless promotion of this ideology here. The evangelists never let up. I don't read them.

If you walk down the street in my neighborhood correcting peoples use of English, your life expectancy would be short, very short. You learn to decode nearly unintelligible speech. You don't correct. It is literally dangerous.
Last edited by Stirling Bartholomew on February 25th, 2019, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Matthew Longhorn » February 25th, 2019, 2:53 pm

Fair enough, I disagree but not going to argue with you
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Barry Hofstetter » February 25th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Having a standard to start with is important. Restored pronunciation is fine, it has good historical linguistic backing, and is a nice place to start. Of course, everyone is going to sound a little bit different with it, just like learning any second language as an adult. A good solid Brit (as opposed to a bad, frail Brit? Sorry... :lol: ) is going to sound different speaking ancient Greek than someone from the American Heartland, even if they both strive diligently to use their restored pronunication. But they will be be able to understand each other, and, after a bit of practice and listening, also understand Erasmean or restored Attic and the like.

Fun fact: one reason English spoken by Europeans sounds so European to most Americans is because they have had British or British trained teachers. Europeans who learn English purely from American sources (true, original or superior English... :shock: ) sound a lot less foreign.

Now, for some reason I'm quite flexible with pronunciation schemes for Ancient Greek, but the only valid pronunciation system for Latin is the Classical. Away with the Ecclesiastical. If it was good enough for Caesar, it's good enough for me!
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Convert from Erasmian

Post by Stephen Carlson » February 25th, 2019, 6:16 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
February 25th, 2019, 3:44 pm
Now, for some reason I'm quite flexible with pronunciation schemes for Ancient Greek, but the only valid pronunciation system for Latin is the Classical. Away with the Ecclesiastical. If it was good enough for Caesar, it's good enough for me!
Nonsense. If it was good enough for Augustine, it's good enough for me!
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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