1 Peter 2:17

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gustav_b
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1 Peter 2:17

Post by gustav_b » October 26th, 2019, 7:48 pm

Hello all.

So, as 1 Pi 2:17-18 we have in Textus Receptus (KJTR, ST):
παντασ τιμησατε την αδελφοτητα αγαπατε τον θεον φοβεισθε τον βασιλεα τιματε
οι οικεται υποτασσομενοι εν παντι φοβω τοισ δεσποταισ ου μονον τοισ αγαθοισ και επιεικεσιν αλλα και τοισ σκολιοισ


And so in the KJV translation :
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.


My question is : could it be possible to translate this greek below :
παντασ τιμησατε την αδελφοτητα αγαπατε τον θεον φοβεισθε τον βασιλεα τιματε οι οικεται
υποτασσομενοι εν παντι φοβω τοισ δεσποταισ ου μονον τοισ αγαθοισ και επιεικεσιν αλλα και τοισ σκολιοισ


with that english :
Let honor all the sibling, let love God, let fear the King, let honor the servants.
Be subject to the masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

Thanks for your help.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 27th, 2019, 8:09 am

1) Please notify a moderator so that we can change your screen name better to reflect your real name, per B-Greek policy.

2) Normally we don't discuss translation, but the Greek.

3) Directly to answer your question, of course not. The Greek makes perfect sense, as rendered by the KJV or any standard translation. Why would we render it with nonsense?
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Jason Hare
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by Jason Hare » October 27th, 2019, 1:56 pm

gustav_b wrote:
October 26th, 2019, 7:48 pm
So, as 1 Pi 2:17-18 we have in Textus Receptus (KJTR, ST):
παντασ τιμησατε την αδελφοτητα αγαπατε τον θεον φοβεισθε τον βασιλεα τιματε
οι οικεται υποτασσομενοι εν παντι φοβω τοισ δεσποταισ ου μονον τοισ αγαθοισ και επιεικεσιν αλλα και τοισ σκολιοισ


<snip>

Let honor all the sibling, let love God, let fear the King, let honor the servants.
Be subject to the masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
I assume you mean “let all the sibling honor, let God love, let the king fear, let the servants honor....” Otherwise, the English is absurd as you put it.

It's best to use final sigma (ς) at the end of words. You’ve posted problematic Greek text and English that doesn’t reflect coherent sense. Let’s start over with the Greek text.

Here’s the TR as it should be:
πάντας τιμήσατε. τὴν ἀδελφότητα ἀγαπᾶτε. τὸν Θεὸν φοβεῖσθε. τὸν βασιλέα τιμᾶτε. Οἱ οἰκέται ὑποτασσόμενοι ἐν παντὶ φόβῳ τοῖς δεσπόταις, οὐ μόνον τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς καὶ ἐπιεικέσιν ἀλλὰ καὶ τοῖς σκολιοῖς.

The text of NA28 is identical except for punctuation (which leads me to ask myself why you quoted the TR instead of a better text):
πάντας τιμήσατε, τὴν ἀδελφότητα ἀγαπᾶτε, τὸν θεὸν φοβεῖσθε, τὸν βασιλέα τιμᾶτε. Οἱ οἰκέται ὑποτασσόμενοι ἐν παντὶ φόβῳ τοῖς δεσπόταις, οὐ μόνον τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς καὶ ἐπιεικέσιν ἀλλὰ καὶ τοῖς σκολιοῖς.

You can see the punctuation in the TR, such that each sentence is demarcated. πάντας τιμήσατε is the first sentence, in which πάτνας “all” is accusative masculine plural, referring to all people. You’re apparently attempting to pair it with τὴν ἀδελφότητα, which is clearly accusative feminine singular. The two cannot be paired together. These are different sentences. In each sentence the direct object appears before the verb (which is in the imperative).

Honor all (people). Love the brotherhood (of believers). Fear God. Honor the king....

This is the only correct way of understanding the verse.

Have you taken a basic course in Greek?
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

gustav_b
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Joined: October 26th, 2019, 6:15 pm

Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by gustav_b » October 27th, 2019, 6:15 pm

About the greek text, I used what greekcntr.com provides for the KJTR (King James Textus Receptus).
There's no accent on it because there weren't on uncial manuscript, because of this I prefer, as a first step, to avoid the added punctation.
You're right: it would be better to put the final sigma (ς) at the end of words instead of the "classical" one.
I'm going to correct this if it's possible to edit my previous post.

I'm french, not a native english speaker, sorry for any english mistakes, so what
I wanted to mean in my English translation is :
Honour all the brotherhood. Love God. Fear the King. Honour the servants .…

I have taken a basic course in ancient greek but I'm a beginner.

πάτνας “all” is accusative masculine plural, referring to all people. You’re apparently attempting to pair it with τὴν ἀδελφότητα, which is clearly accusative feminine singular.
Thanks for that answer, that's what I needed.

Normally we don't discuss translation, but the Greek.
So, is there a place where I could ask translation questions ?

Nevertheless, If we look at the GA 01 manuscript there is παντες instead of παντας, so it's nominative instead of accusative.
So because of that, we could have :
All of you: honour the brotherhood. Love God. Fear the King. Honour the servants .…
Correct ?
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 27th, 2019, 6:45 pm

gustav_b wrote:
October 27th, 2019, 6:15 pm
Normally we don't discuss translation, but the Greek.
So, is there a place where I could ask translation questions ?

Nevertheless, If we look at the GA 01 manuscript there is παντες instead of παντας, so it's nominative instead of accusative.
So because of that, we could have :
All of you: honour the brotherhood. Love God. Fear the King. Honour the servants .…
Correct ?
I apologize if my response seemed overly harsh. Jason gave you a much better answer (he must be a better Christian than I am...). There is no other manuscript evidence that I can see for this variant. τιμάω wants a direct object in parallel with the other imperatives, and even apart from the overwhelming manuscript support for πάντας, reading πάντες leaves one wondering "honor what or who?" and the vast majority of readers would conclude that it's simply a copyist's error.

The real rule on B-Greek is "Greek first." That means if we do discuss translation, it's from the perspective of better trying to understand how the Greek actually works. This is to guard against interminable discussions about translation preferences and to encourage the actual study and discussion of the language.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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gustav_b
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by gustav_b » October 28th, 2019, 11:52 pm

reading πάντες leaves one wondering "honor what or who?"
πάντες is nominative (so subject), τιμήσατε verb in imperative, and τὴν ἀδελφότητα accusative (so direct object).
=> So, we would have : Let everyone honor the brotherwood
I apologize if my response seemed overly harsh.
I don't know unfortunately if you've sinned with a such response, but the Scriptures can tell us for a such case !
he must be a better Christian than I am
I don't understand what you mean.
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Jason Hare
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by Jason Hare » October 29th, 2019, 12:50 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
October 27th, 2019, 6:45 pm
Jason gave you a much better answer (he must be a better Christian than I am...).
As long as we've had acquaintance, Barry, you must know this is true. ;) LOL <3
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Jason A. Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by Jason Hare » October 29th, 2019, 1:00 am

Please note that Barry informed you above of the policy that you must use your full first and last name on this forum. You can read the policy here, and we take it seriously. If you do not contact an admin before your next post, it will not be released. Please take care to get this corrected.
gustav_b wrote:
October 28th, 2019, 11:52 pm
reading πάντες leaves one wondering "honor what or who?"
πάντες is nominative (so subject), τιμήσατε verb in imperative, and τὴν ἀδελφότητα accusative (so direct object).
=> So, we would have : Let everyone honor the brotherwood
And then what do you do with the rest of the verse? Each of the imperatives should be paired with an object.

[πάντας τιμήσατε] [τὴν ἀδελφότητα ἀγαπᾶτε] [τὸν θεὸν φοβεῖσθε] [τὸν βασιλέα τιμᾶτε]
[Honor all people] [love the brotherhood] [fear God] [honor the king]

[πάντες τιμήσατε τὴν ἀδελφότητα] [ἀγαπᾶτε τὸν θεὸν] [φοβεῖσθε τὸν βασιλέα] [τιμᾶτε]
[All of you honor the brotherhood] [love God] [fear the king] [honor]

Is it not clear to you that the final phrase has τὸν βασιλέα as the object of τιμᾶτε? You cannot have τιμᾶτε just hanging there without an object.

I would think it clear that loving the brotherhood and fearing God would be natural expressions, as well as the connection of the accusative to τιμᾶτε at the end. It's pretty obvious that πάντες is a mistake, and the phrases should be joined as they are by the punctuation in every critical edition (including the TR).

I think you're striving to establish something that the text cannot support.
gustav_b wrote:
October 28th, 2019, 11:52 pm
he must be a better Christian than I am
I don't understand what you mean.
He was joking.
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Jason A. Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » October 29th, 2019, 2:59 am

If I could jump in on a question I’ve always had with this verse... why the tense/aspect shift between aorist and present forms of timao?
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: 1 Peter 2:17

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 29th, 2019, 10:40 am

gustav_b wrote:
October 28th, 2019, 11:52 pm
reading πάντες leaves one wondering "honor what or who?"
πάντες is nominative (so subject), τιμήσατε verb in imperative, and τὴν ἀδελφότητα accusative (so direct object).
=> So, we would have : Let everyone honor the brotherwood
Do you see from Jason's post why this won't work? The structure here is rhetorically nuanced, the accusative direct objects fronted for emphasis before each verb. What you want to do leaves a verb hanging without a direct object and destroys that rhetorical balance. And don't forget that the vast majority of manuscripts have πάντας, which both context and syntax demand here.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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