Hello everyone!
First, I copied this text of Eph. 5:13 from a web page:
τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐλεγχόμενα ὑπὸ τοῦ φωτὸς φανεροῦται, πᾶν γὰρ τὸ φανερούμενον φῶς ἐστιν.
Then I used a Greek font on my phone to do this:
τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐλεγχόμενα ὑπὸ τοῦ φωτὸς φανεροῦται, πᾶν γὰρ τὸ φανερούμενον φῶς ἐστιν.
Would someone please tell me which, if either, of these are showing up as the proper Greek text on your end?
Second, my actual Greek question, concerning the last few words of this verse. It seems easier to understand an expression like, "whatever MAKES visible is light" than to understand "whatever BECOMES visible is light".
If φανερούμενον is nominative passive, then it seems that "whatever BECOMES visible is light" would be unavoidably correct.
If it is nominative middle (deponent), then perhaps "whatever MAKES visible is light" could be correct. The BAG lexicon has no entries for the middle voice under this word, but I don't know if that closes the case or not.
Alternatively, if the participle is accusative, then couldn't we have an accusative of respect, and translate it something like, "with respect to what is made manifest there is light", or, more fluidly, "whenever something is made manifest, there must be light"?
Thanks!
φανεροω in Eph 5:13
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Re: φανεροω in Eph 5:13
Both look perfectly and properly Greek...davidmcy2 wrote: ↑December 29th, 2019, 7:26 pm Hello everyone!
First, I copied this text of Eph. 5:13 from a web page:
τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐλεγχόμενα ὑπὸ τοῦ φωτὸς φανεροῦται, πᾶν γὰρ τὸ φανερούμενον φῶς ἐστιν.
Then I used a Greek font on my phone to do this:
τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐλεγχόμενα ὑπὸ τοῦ φωτὸς φανεροῦται, πᾶν γὰρ τὸ φανερούμενον φῶς ἐστιν.
Would someone please tell me which, if either, of these are showing up as the proper Greek text on your end?
Look at the context:davidmcy2 wrote:Second, my actual Greek question, concerning the last few words of this verse. It seems easier to understand an expression like, "whatever MAKES visible is light" than to understand "whatever BECOMES visible is light".
If φανερούμενον is nominative passive, then it seems that "whatever BECOMES visible is light" would be unavoidably correct.
If it is nominative middle (deponent), then perhaps "whatever MAKES visible is light" could be correct. The BAG lexicon has no entries for the middle voice under this word, but I don't know if that closes the case or not.
13 τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐλεγχόμενα ὑπὸ τοῦ φωτὸς φανεροῦται, τὸ φανερούμενον, 14 πᾶν γὰρ τὸ φανερούμενον φῶς ἐστιν. διὸ λέγει,
Ἔγειρε, ὁ καθεύδων,
καὶ ἀνάστα ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν,
καὶ ἐπιφαύσει σοι ὁ Χριστός
Let me suggest that τὸ φανερούμενον is parallel in sense to φανεροῦται. True middles in Koine are not common, and the passive makes good sense here.
No. Accusative of respect is also rare and extremely unlikely without clear context to indicate the usage. And under no circumstances can ἐστιν be read as "must."davidmcy2 wrote:Alternatively, if the participle is accusative, then couldn't we have an accusative of respect, and translate it something like, "with respect to what is made manifest there is light", or, more fluidly, "whenever something is made manifest, there must be light"?
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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Re: φανεροω in Eph 5:13
Both look fine to me.davidmcy2 wrote: ↑December 29th, 2019, 7:26 pm Hello everyone!
First, I copied this text of Eph. 5:13 from a web page:
τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐλεγχόμενα ὑπὸ τοῦ φωτὸς φανεροῦται, πᾶν γὰρ τὸ φανερούμενον φῶς ἐστιν.
Then I used a Greek font on my phone to do this:
τὰ δὲ πάντα ἐλεγχόμενα ὑπὸ τοῦ φωτὸς φανεροῦται, πᾶν γὰρ τὸ φανερούμενον φῶς ἐστιν.
Would someone please tell me which, if either, of these are showing up as the proper Greek text on your end?
Thanks!
Thx
D
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- Location: Finland
- Contact:
Re: φανεροω in Eph 5:13
I'm not 100% I understood you correctly. But I believe what you think is caused by wrong assumptions about the Greek voice.If φανερούμενον is nominative passive, then it seems that "whatever BECOMES visible is light" would be unavoidably correct.
If it is nominative middle (deponent), then perhaps "whatever MAKES visible is light" could be correct.
You may have learned the old definition for "deponent": a formally middle-only verb with active meaning. But even with this definition your second possibility would be wrong: as you say yourself, it's active in lexicons. Therefore it can't be "deponent" by any definition.
Even when the term "deponent" is used correctly when talking about Greek, it's only about the form (i.e. a middle deponent appears only in the middle form in the language, not in active form), not semantics (i.e. it doesn't say anything about "activeness").
Re: φανεροω in Eph 5:13
There are no instances of middle-passive forms where a so-called "deponent" also takes on the causative semantics of the active.davidmcy2 wrote: ↑December 29th, 2019, 7:26 pm Second, my actual Greek question, concerning the last few words of this verse. It seems easier to understand an expression like, "whatever MAKES visible is light" than to understand "whatever BECOMES visible is light".
If φανερούμενον is nominative passive, then it seems that "whatever BECOMES visible is light" would be unavoidably correct.
If it is nominative middle (deponent), then perhaps "whatever MAKES visible is light" could be correct. The BAG lexicon has no entries for the middle voice under this word, but I don't know if that closes the case or not.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
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Re: φανεροω in Eph 5:13
Eph 5:8-15 is reflexive, and imma venture to suggest "enlightened" for φανερούμενον,
Off-topic: So that's where the phrase "rise and shine" probably came from. I'm also intrigued by some parallel with an old chinese phrase to describe an upright man 光明磊落 (like light, like landing rocks, evoking a burst of light blasting a hole from the ground).
Off-topic: So that's where the phrase "rise and shine" probably came from. I'm also intrigued by some parallel with an old chinese phrase to describe an upright man 光明磊落 (like light, like landing rocks, evoking a burst of light blasting a hole from the ground).