I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
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This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.
When answering questions in this forum, keep it simple, and aim your responses to the level of the person asking the question.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
In all fairness, though, it is possible to say "here is what people who have studied this text in the original say." For that, however, I would assiduously avoid interlinears and Strong's. Exegetical commentaries are the best in this context, for the reader who doesn't have time to learn Greek, but wants some sense of how the Greek might contribute to understanding that particular passage. Instead of saying the Greek says, honesty should compel "the commentators who have studied Greek say" or "My extremely eloquent and erudite friends at the B-Greek forum say..."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Yes, let's say that a 10% to 15% can be lost.Jonathan Robie wrote:Sure, but as someone who speaks two languages, I'm sure you recognize how difficult it is to explain what gets lost in translation from a Spanish text to someone who does not know Spanish, and how difficult it is for anyone who does not know Spanish to really know what a text says beyond what the translations convey. Greek is the same way.Eduardo Ortega wrote:Whatever. I don't have the time to learn Greek now.
That's why I sought help from people that already know it.
I have read many other uses of that word, in the Septuagint and in Josephus book, and that 10-15% is highly reduced because it never meant something else than form or appearance. Even in the Bible, it's in Mark other use of the word.
If it means 10 times appearance, 4 times form, and 0 times another thing, for me it's clear.
Look, I searched the bookstores in my country and none has the book.Jonathan Robie wrote:The works I refer you to above are probably your best bet for word meanings.
If I purchase it from Amazon, it will take too long to arrive.
I think it's not against the law, not a sin either, if someone who already has the book paste here as a cite what a book says about a word. Of course, if the person wants and is interested in this subject. I didn't ask it anyway.
I will study, with this issue I realized that I need it. But I don't have the time now because I have to present this teaching too soon.Jonathan Robie wrote:If you say you don't have time to learn Greek, though, B-Greek is not the place for you.
I'll do it, but not just now. It will take perhaps a year or two.
I have some notions, I've been studying the Bible for more than 20 years and was taught some Greek.
It's the time to study Greek, I know, but it will take time.
I never needed it before in this way.
Yes, I can say I'm in the process, but at the very beginning. As I said, I've been studying the Bible for long, I know some things, many words.Jonathan Robie wrote:We welcome people who are learning the language, and will help with that, but B-Greek is a forum for people who are at least in the process of learning the language. Even in the beginner's forum.
And about commentaries of the Bible, about this passage I've read many. I'm not convinced at all. That's why I need to go to the Greek. I think they are too biased because of their theology.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Of course, but not to you.Jonathan Robie wrote:But you do seem to be planning to teach on this passage, and to teach on the meaning of the Greek text.Eduardo Ortega wrote:I'm not teaching anyone here. I just decided for myself (because I need to go ahead -and because for me it's clear-) that μορφῇ means appearance in that verse.
Here's an allergy I have: when I hear the phrase "in the original Greek", what follows is usually hogwash, because so many Christians have convinced themselves that they can have deep insights into Greek without ever learning the language, unlike any other language known to man. If you don't know Greek, use translations, and don't pretend to be an expert on the meaning of Greek words. Especially if you haven't even taken the trouble to look up the words in the Bauer dictionary.[/quote]Eduardo Ortega wrote:I need to understand this because I have to teach about these verses.
I don't have the dictionary.
It could be ironic to you, for me it's very serious, because I take it totally seriously.Eduardo Ortega wrote:It's ironic that the passage we are discussing is Philippians 2:6-8.
I don't want to teach theology to you, and please don't teach theology to me.
My questions are:
is it possible that meaning?
what meaning do you think it is?
When I already have chosen a meaning, it's my choice, you don't have to agree. What I ask is only to point is that meaning is not possible.
Of course appearance is one of the meanings for μορφῇ.
I already decided to take that meaning. I'm not asking you to agree. I inform that this is the meaning that I'll use because I need help with other words in the phrase, and it's necessary to take into account the sense of the whole sentence.
If anyone don't want to help me because it contradicts his theology, Ok, don't help then.
I don't want to teach anyone here, not to teach theology and I don't have to say, not to teach Greek of course.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Yes, I have time, and I will. But I don't have time before I need to fully understand this passage. It will take long to learn Greek, I need this to be finished in about ten days more or less.Barry Hofstetter wrote:In all fairness, though, it is possible to say "here is what people who have studied this text in the original say." For that, however, I would assiduously avoid interlinears and Strong's. Exegetical commentaries are the best in this context, for the reader who doesn't have time to learn Greek,
I have already read many of "the commentators who have studied Greek say" (as I commented in other post), now I'm trying with what "My extremely eloquent and erudite friends at the B-Greek forum say...".Barry Hofstetter wrote:but wants some sense of how the Greek might contribute to understanding that particular passage. Instead of saying the Greek says, honesty should compel "the commentators who have studied Greek say" or "My extremely eloquent and erudite friends at the B-Greek forum say..."
At least it's more interactive, I can ask questions.
I could say I read Greek, etc. You are condemning me for being honest.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
But give me an opportunity.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:Jonathan may sound harsh, but I can fully sympathize with his concerns. You yourself wrote:That's completely true. But it means that the verses have already been analyzed to death by countless scholars, and we can add nothing to that here.I've read about 40 translations, and my idea is that when translators came to this passage, it wasn't clear for most of them. The senses they took vary, but what I also can see is that the theological view of Jesus had also a high impact on their interpretation.
Yes, I take into account your suggestions and I'll buy the books, I trust what you suggest to buy because you are, let's say, experts (or at least knows Greek much better than me).Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:If you want to know the possibilities and reasoning for interpretations/translations of certain verses, find (or ask here for) some good freely available article about the subject, or buy a good commentary. http://bestcommentaries.com/book/3702/0 ... r-t-obrien could be the best your money can buy.
But I don't live in the U.S. and as I said, it would take too long to arrive.
I should have done this with more time. Now I have a couple of weeks to finish this research.
What do you mean? I just want help on linguistic grounds. What I expect is to discover what the Word of God says there, but I just need help on linguistic grounds, not theology.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:That said, your attitude and method is admirable. You want to know and understand the text and the language and aren't afraid to take the hard route. The only problem seems to be that you don't know yet what to expect of Greek exegesis and Greek studies, and therefore our answers can't meet your current needs.
I leave the "theology" to God, and the linguistic with the help of experts in Greek.
Yes, I'm watching a movie right now.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:But don't give up. Learning and understanding Greek - and text written in Greek - requires patience. You may need give rest to some text or question and come back to it later, after you have first learnt something else. Taking the most difficult texts and subjects first isn't necessarily the best way to learn Greek...
The last days I've been all the time reading and searching Greek words in the Bible.
Thanks by the way.
I'm sorry but I found this forum and I don't know where else to find help from people who know Greek, I hope it could be the right place.
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
OK, let's start with this: can we find works available online, for free, that might help you out with this passage.
I'm no expert on commentaries or Philippians, and I'm a littler Greek than many people here, but here's one thing I found that looks useful:
A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles to the Philippians and to Philemon, by Marvin Richardson Vincent.
For a dictionary, I can't think of anything better than this that's online for free:
A manual Greek lexicon of the New Testament, George Abbott-Smith. I opened it to the first page that covers the word you are interested in, check out the top of the following page as well.
Another thing you can try: go to net.bible.org, go to the passage you are studying, and on the right-hand side, select 'articles'. Sometimes those articles are very good, and go into some detail, but you need to be selective.
Can anyone else identify stuff that's good, goes into careful detail on the Greek of this text, and available for free online?
I'm no expert on commentaries or Philippians, and I'm a littler Greek than many people here, but here's one thing I found that looks useful:
A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Epistles to the Philippians and to Philemon, by Marvin Richardson Vincent.
For a dictionary, I can't think of anything better than this that's online for free:
A manual Greek lexicon of the New Testament, George Abbott-Smith. I opened it to the first page that covers the word you are interested in, check out the top of the following page as well.
Another thing you can try: go to net.bible.org, go to the passage you are studying, and on the right-hand side, select 'articles'. Sometimes those articles are very good, and go into some detail, but you need to be selective.
Can anyone else identify stuff that's good, goes into careful detail on the Greek of this text, and available for free online?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
I would concentrate on these three similar phrases:Eduardo Ortega wrote: OK. One of the important words there (in verse) 6 is μορφῇ (morphē G3444).
The meaning of this word is very important for being in the right direction for reading the following words in the verse.
Whatever ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ means, it's closely related to τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ and also to μορφὴν δούλου λαβών in this verse. I don't think μορφή means appearance here - I don't know how you can 'look like' God, and the same verse says he was ἴσα θεῷ, 'equal to God'. And I don't know what it means to 'look like' a servant. I tend to think "in the form of God" translates ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ well, and "taking the form of a servant" translates μορφὴν δούλου λαβών well. But the 'form of God' or 'form of a servant' is more a matter of essence or nature than of appearance, it's not what Jesus looked like, is who he was. He was God, he became a servant.5 τοῦτο φρονεῖτε ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ,
6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, 7 ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος· καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος 8 ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι θανάτου, θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ·
9 διὸ καὶ ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ὑπερύψωσεν, καὶ ἐχαρίσατο αὐτῷ τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα, 10 ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ ἐπουρανίων καὶ ἐπιγείων καὶ καταχθονίων, 11 καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός.
The phrase ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ is also related to σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος. I don't really know how significant it is that the word σχῆμα is used here rather than μορφή, but the only other place the word σχῆμα is used in the New Testament refers to a passing form in 1 Corinthians 7:31 - παράγει γὰρ τὸ σχῆμα τοῦ κόσμου τούτου. You see this reflected in translations - some use 'form' here too, translating σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος as "being found in human form", others use terms like 'appearance' or 'likeness'. I suspect there are good reasons for going either way.
Note: After reading Stephen's post below, I highlighted ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων as well
Last edited by Jonathan Robie on July 5th, 2012, 3:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Edited to highlight ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων as well
Reason: Edited to highlight ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων as well
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Verse 7 has three words of similar meaning: μορφήν, ὁμοιώματι, and σχήματι. My general advice is to focus on their commonalities rather than their distinctions.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
Thanks, I found some good comments there. Not about the "hard" part so far, but good explaining the context.Jonathan Robie wrote: Another thing you can try: go to net.bible.org, go to the passage you are studying, and on the right-hand side, select 'articles'. Sometimes those articles are very good, and go into some detail, but you need to be selective.
Can anyone else identify stuff that's good, goes into careful detail on the Greek of this text, and available for free online?
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Re: I need help with Philippians 2:6-8
OK, but I would like to know if there is a rule or something about that. Thanks.Stephen Carlson wrote:Verse 7 has three words of similar meaning: μορφήν, ὁμοιώματι, and σχήματι. My general advice is to focus on their commonalities rather than their distinctions.