Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

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Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby Mike Burke Deactivated » November 4th, 2012, 11:49 pm

I understand Codex Vaticanus reads "because of Thy will they were not, and were created" (Rev. 4:11.)

Is that really how the Greek text reads (and what exactly would that expression mean)?
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » November 5th, 2012, 12:40 am

There's no negation. It's (literally) "for Your will they were, and were created."

You can see for yourself: http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=59&chapter=4&lid=en&side=r&verse=11&zoomSlider=0
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby Mike Burke Deactivated » November 5th, 2012, 1:16 am

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:There's no negation. It's (literally) "for Your will they were, and were created."

You can see for yourself: http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=59&chapter=4&lid=en&side=r&verse=11&zoomSlider=0


I thought Codex Vatanicus was what's meant by "manuscript B" here.

another oldt manuscript, B, reads, "They were not, and were created," were created out of nothing), that is, were existing, as contrasted with their previous non-existence.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelati ... mpare.html

Is there a manuscript that reads "they were not, and were created"?
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby Stephen Carlson » November 5th, 2012, 1:33 am

Mike, we have a forum rule that if you want to talk about Greek text, you have to post the Greek, either in Unicode or in the old-style B-Greek transliteration.

This rule is to prevent wild goose chases for those helpful people trying to respond.
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » November 5th, 2012, 2:31 am

Hi, Mike.

Sorry. Brain lapse.

You asked about B and I responded about א‍.

I'm thinking you must have been referring to Sinaiticus, though, since Vaticanus doesn't contain the book of Revelation.
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby Stephen Carlson » November 5th, 2012, 2:55 am

The "B" mentioned in some older editions of Revelation is now known as 046 to avoid confusion. It is also a Vatican manuscript, but dating from the 10th century.
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby Jason Hare » November 5th, 2012, 6:53 am

And still no one posted the Greek text of the phrase in question. ;)

ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν,
λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν,
ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα
καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν.
Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
because you created all things
and on account of your will they existed and were created.


046, as Stephen stated, inserts οὐκ before ἦσαν:

καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου οὐκ ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν
and on account of your will they did not exist and were created


A few (1854, 2050, apparently one manuscript of the Majority text and the Sahidic tradition) have the present εἰσίν instead of imperfect ἦσαν:

καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σού εἰσιν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν
and on account of your will they exist and were created


There is also one uncial (2329) that replaces ἐκτίσθησαν with ἐγένοντο:

καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐγένοντο
and on account of your will they existed and came into being


Still yet, Codex Alexandrinus (A) deletes the last phrase altogether:

καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν
and on account of your will they existed


This should help sort through the verse's appearance in the major witnesses. There isn't just one variant in the verse.
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?

Postby timothy_p_mcmahon » November 5th, 2012, 12:35 pm

Thanks, Jason, for the thorough review of the textual variants so typical of Revelation.

Returning to Mike's original question as to the meaning of 046's reading: presumably it echoes the teaching of 2 Maccabees 7:28 that God created all things out of nothing (more or less, "they did not exist until You created them").

ἀξιῶ σε, τέκνον, ἀναβλέψαντα εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἰδόντα γνῶναι ὅτι οὐκ ἐξ ὄντων ἐποίησεν αὐτὰ ὁ θεός
I urge you, child, to look at the sky and the earth and when you see all that is in them to acknowledge that God did not make them out of existing things
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