I understand Codex Vaticanus reads "because of Thy will they were not, and were created" (Rev. 4:11.)
Is that really how the Greek text reads (and what exactly would that expression mean)?
Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
There's no negation. It's (literally) "for Your will they were, and were created."
You can see for yourself: http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscrip ... omSlider=0
You can see for yourself: http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscrip ... omSlider=0
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
I thought Codex Vatanicus was what's meant by "manuscript B" here.timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:There's no negation. It's (literally) "for Your will they were, and were created."
You can see for yourself: http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscrip ... omSlider=0
http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelati ... mpare.htmlanother oldt manuscript, B, reads, "They were not, and were created," were created out of nothing), that is, were existing, as contrasted with their previous non-existence.
Is there a manuscript that reads "they were not, and were created"?
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
Mike, we have a forum rule that if you want to talk about Greek text, you have to post the Greek, either in Unicode or in the old-style B-Greek transliteration.
This rule is to prevent wild goose chases for those helpful people trying to respond.
This rule is to prevent wild goose chases for those helpful people trying to respond.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
Hi, Mike.
Sorry. Brain lapse.
You asked about B and I responded about א.
I'm thinking you must have been referring to Sinaiticus, though, since Vaticanus doesn't contain the book of Revelation.
Sorry. Brain lapse.
You asked about B and I responded about א.
I'm thinking you must have been referring to Sinaiticus, though, since Vaticanus doesn't contain the book of Revelation.
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
The "B" mentioned in some older editions of Revelation is now known as 046 to avoid confusion. It is also a Vatican manuscript, but dating from the 10th century.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
And still no one posted the Greek text of the phrase in question.
ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν,
λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν,
ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα
καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν.
Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
because you created all things
and on account of your will they existed and were created.
046, as Stephen stated, inserts οὐκ before ἦσαν:λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν,
ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα
καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν.
Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
because you created all things
and on account of your will they existed and were created.
καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου οὐκ ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν
and on account of your will they did not exist and were created
A few (1854, 2050, apparently one manuscript of the Majority text and the Sahidic tradition) have the present εἰσίν instead of imperfect ἦσαν:and on account of your will they did not exist and were created
καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σού εἰσιν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν
and on account of your will they exist and were created
There is also one uncial (2329) that replaces ἐκτίσθησαν with ἐγένοντο:and on account of your will they exist and were created
καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐγένοντο
and on account of your will they existed and came into being
Still yet, Codex Alexandrinus (A) deletes the last phrase altogether:and on account of your will they existed and came into being
καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν
and on account of your will they existed
This should help sort through the verse's appearance in the major witnesses. There isn't just one variant in the verse.and on account of your will they existed
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
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Re: Rev. 4:11 (Codex Vaticanus)?
Thanks, Jason, for the thorough review of the textual variants so typical of Revelation.
Returning to Mike's original question as to the meaning of 046's reading: presumably it echoes the teaching of 2 Maccabees 7:28 that God created all things out of nothing (more or less, "they did not exist until You created them").
ἀξιῶ σε, τέκνον, ἀναβλέψαντα εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἰδόντα γνῶναι ὅτι οὐκ ἐξ ὄντων ἐποίησεν αὐτὰ ὁ θεός
I urge you, child, to look at the sky and the earth and when you see all that is in them to acknowledge that God did not make them out of existing things
Returning to Mike's original question as to the meaning of 046's reading: presumably it echoes the teaching of 2 Maccabees 7:28 that God created all things out of nothing (more or less, "they did not exist until You created them").
ἀξιῶ σε, τέκνον, ἀναβλέψαντα εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ τὰ ἐν αὐτοῖς πάντα ἰδόντα γνῶναι ὅτι οὐκ ἐξ ὄντων ἐποίησεν αὐτὰ ὁ θεός
I urge you, child, to look at the sky and the earth and when you see all that is in them to acknowledge that God did not make them out of existing things